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Transcripts of Interviews with
child witnesses
Bart
Dogwood aged 6, 2nd interview
recorded 4 Aug 1992
(Names
as used in the book "A City Possessed" )
A He put his penis up my bum.
Q What did that make your bum
feel like?
A What do you mean?
Q What did your bum feel like
when you [sic] put his penis up your bum?
A Nnnn, ah, what do you mean
by?
Q What did it feel like? Did
you know did it feel?
A It felt ticklish.
Q Felt ticklish, mm hmm. So
when he put his penis up your bum, where were you, which building were you
in?
A In his house.
Q Which part of his house?
A Um, bathroom.
Q Was that, were you in the
bath or somewhere else?
A I was just standing in the
bathroom … in the bath.
Q Looking in the bath, did you
say?
A No, I was just standing near the
bath when he did it to me.
Q In the, near the, standing
near the bath. And was there anyone else there when you [sic] did that to
your bum with his penis?
A Mmm, no.
Q How many times did he do that
to your bum with his penis?
A Um about twice.
Q And your bum felt tickly?
A Yeah, except it wasn’t really
to make it feel ticklish.
Q It wasn’t what?
A It wasn’t really to make it
feel ticklish.
Q What was it really to make it
feel like?
A Feel bad. And to make you
feel sad. My eyes are getting sore because of the light.
Q Mmm. Did it make you feel bad
and sad or not?
A Um.
Q … a hanky?
A Bad and sad, yeah, bad, sad
and ticklish.
Q Did you get any other
feelings when he did that to your bum with his penis?
A No.
Q So when he did that to your
bum?
A Mmm.
Q Um, whereabouts were your
clothes?
A He just pulled my pants down.
Q Mm hmm. What about your
knickers?
A Yeah, course he pulled them
down too.
Q And what about his clothes,
whereabouts were his clothes?
A Whereabouts were his clothes?
Q Yeah.
A Um, oh, he just pulled his
pants down and his knickers.
Q Mm hmm. So could you choose,
I need you to … choose a doll to be Peter and one to be … You do that and
I’ll get a bath. There’s not many there to choose from are there really. Just
choose a big person or just choose a doll to be … and a doll to be Peter and
which ones will be the best one.
A Is that a girl.
Q Well no it doesn’t have to
be, cos girls, girls wear trousers too …
A Oh ah …
Q What about this?
A What about this? That’s a
baby. No, I don’t think, she looks ugly. Mmm.
Q Choose one to be Peter.
A He has glasses.
Q Okay and one to be [name].
How about that one?
A Ah, in the dick.
Q Okay, now bring the dolls up
here and what else was in Peter’s bathroom?
A Mmm, water.
Q Hey.
A Water.
Q Water, yeah. We’ll just have
to, we can’t put water in there at the moment. What else?
A I know cos it was all, it
will all fall out the hole.
Q Yeah, and what else was in
the bathroom?
A Sink.
Q A sink. Show me where, show
me how his bathroom was.
A And there was, there would
be, the bath would be there or it could be there?
Q Mm hmm, so show me how he did
that to your bum with his penis.
A Um, he, he won’t stand up.
Q No, okay, well, I’ll hold him
and you show me where you were.
A He went …
Q No.
A I was, um, like that bending
over and he was, um, putting this in there like that.
Q Right, so you were standing
bending over?
A Yeah.
Q Was he standing up or
kneeling or sitting?
A Um, he was ss, kneeling,
standing up.
Q Right and he was behind you
and his penis was going, um. Now when his penis did that to your bum was it,
it felt tickly, was his body staying still or was it moving?
A It was staying still.
Q Mm hmm, so what was making
the tickly feeling?
A I thought, oh it just felt
ticklish.
Q Yeah and whereabouts were his
hands when he was doing that to your bum with his penis, what were his hands?
A He was holding his penis in
there.
Q Oh, okay, so did it go on
your bum or in your bum?
A In, in my bum.
Q In your bum. And did he do
anything to your bum before that or not?
A Did he do anything to my bum
before that?
Q Mmm.
A Um, oh, well, he just said
bad words to me.
Q Okay, right.
A Like you’re a fucken
arsehole.
Q Mm hmm. And so after he did
that to your bum with his penis.
A Mmm.
Q What happened after when,
after that, what happened when he finished doing that?
A What happened when he had
finished doing that?
Q Doing that, putting his penis
in your bum.
A Oh he took us back to crèche.
He said, oh, yeah, we had a good walk.
…
A Yeah and there was already
about two or three at the house waiting.
Q Two or three kids or adults?
A Adults.
Q Were they men or women?
A Men.
Q Any women ever there or not.
A Not that I know?
Q Any women ever take you there
or not?
A I …
Q Right and what did the other
men do at Peter’s place. We’ll just be very careful with that clock so we
don’t bump it. Ah, it says 20 past 4. Okay, just come away from there … um
what did the other men do at Peter’s place?
A They were hurting other
children.
Q How did they do that?
A I don’t know cos I wasn’t
with the other children.
Q What, what made you think
they were hurting other children?
A Cos they went into separate
rooms.
Q Which children?
A They put my friend [male
name].
Q Mmm. Any other children
there?
A Any other children there?
Q Mmm.
A Um, I, there probably was but
I can’t remember.
Q Okay, were were, [male
name]’s a boy isn’t he, yeah?
A Yeah.
Q So there, were there any
other girls there, were, were there any other boys there or not?
A Any other boys?
Q Yeah at Peter’s. Well bring
it back here and we can do one …
A Don’t like that one, this
one’s the best.
Q Yep, careful of that clock
won’t you, woops, don’t want you to kick it. Um, were there any other. Could
you please turn round and face this way and then I could see your face.
That’s good. Um … were there any other boys there, any other boy kids?
A Um, no, not that I know of.
Q Any other girls there, any
girls there?
A No I can’t, I can’t remember
all of them.
Q Right, which ones do you
remember?
A I can remember [male name].
Q Just [male name] okay. And,
um, so did, so that’s, um, Peter put his penis up your bum, maa, he made you
eat poos?
A Yeah and he said bad things
to me.
Q And he said bad things to
you?
A Mmm.
Q Now Peter’s penis went up
your bum.
A Mmm.
Q Show me whereabouts the bum
is on the doll.
A … is this a girl or a boy?
Q I’m not sure. It looks like a
girl though, doesn’t it, with the dress. So there and what are bums for?
A Um, for doing poos out.
Q Yep and whereabouts would
the?
A It is a girl.
Q It’s a girl, is it. So if
this was a boy where would the penis be?
A Ah, up there.
Q Yeah and what are penises
for.
A Doing wees out of.
Q Yeah. So, um … Peter’s penis,
what are you doing, making the doll wake up? Can I just use this to help us?
Peter’s penis went up your bum here.
A Mmm.
Q Did Peter’s penis go anywhere
else on your body or not?
A Nnn.
Q Mmm.
A Na.
Q And when he did, when you had
to hold his penis?
A Mmm.
Q White stuff came out.
A White sticky stuff.
Q White sticky stuff.
A Ah, um, things when you have
sex.
Q Mmm, how do you know about
that?
A Um, I just do cos Mum and Dad
have it.
Q Okay.
A So that’s what, and that’s
what makes the babies.
Q Yeah, so has anyone else ever
got you to hold their penis before till the sticky stuff came out, no?
A No only Peter.
Q Only Peter.
A One of his friends might of.
Q Which friend?
A Oh well it’s one that I can’t
remember his name or what he looks like or they all had dark blacky brownyish
hair.
Q Did they. And he might have,
so did, did he get, did, did one of Peter’s friends make you hold his penis
or not?
A No.
Q But you think he might have.
Is that right?
A He might have done it to
other children.
Q Oh, he might have done it to
other children.
A Look there’s another sink
again.
Q And does anyone else, ever
take Peter, have you ever, so have you ever seen anyone’s else hold Peter’s
penis before or not.
A No …
Q What are you making.
A I just …
Q … the sinks out. And, um, you
know how you said Peter’s penis went up your bum?
A Mmm.
Q And it happened in the
bathroom. Where did it happen the other time?
A Same place.
Q In the bathroom. So how many
times in the bathroom?
A About twice.
Q And has anyone else ever done
that to your bum with their penis before?
A No.
…
Q Tell me some more things
about Peter’s house. What else happened there?
A Oh, nothing much, not any
more, mainly those things.
Q And, um, did, um, yes, did
any, did any of those other men do bad things like Peter did or not?
A …
Q Pardon.
A They done the same things.
Q Who to?
A Other children.
Q Mm hmm, did they do, did any
of them do the same things to you or not?
A Yep.
Q Which one?
A Um I think it was [male
name].
Q And what did he do to you?
A He done hurt me the same way
as Peter.
Q Whereabouts did he hurt you?
A Um, same places.
Q Which, which place? Show me
on your body where that was.
A No, I’ll show you on here.
Q Oh, yeah, that’s fine, you
can do that, it’s not a problem.
A Oh, um, in there and
[indicates genital area on doll].
Q Could you call out the names
when you point to it?
A And there [indicates
posterior of doll].
Q What’s that called?
A We know what it’s called.
Q Down there, under the pants,
yep.
A Yep, there.
Q And what did he hurt your bum
with, what did [male name] hurt your bum with?
A Um, his hand and Peter’s
fucken bum as well, just smacked my bum heaps of times and wobble my penis
heaps of times.
Q Yep. And where else did [male
name] hurt you? He hurt you on your bum?
A Mmm.
Q What did, what did [male
name] hurt your bum with?
A His hand.
Q Anything else? Did any other
part of [male name] hurt your bum?
A His penis. What’s this,
what’s this meant to be?
Q I think that’s meant to be a
person.
A What, you can make a?
Q Hey, what sort of person was
[male name]? Was he an old person or a person like Peter or a?
A Oh, he was a young person
like [male name] is except he has a few whiskers and then he was a bit bald.
Q Mm hmm. What colour hair?
A Ooh, all of them had, ah,
darkish, um.
Q Darkish blacky hair?
A Black-brown.
Q Yeah, so when this man [male
name] hurt your bum, whereabouts did that happen?
A Whereabouts did it happen?
Q Yeah.
A When he hurt my bum?
Q Yeah when [male name] did.
A Um, he did it at the two-storied
house with the ladder.
Q Yeah and which, whereabouts
in the house did he do that?
A In one of the bedrooms.
Q And where was Peter?
A Was it, wasn’t, um, Peter’s
house, it was one of his friends.
Q So was that a different house
where Peter?
A Peter didn’t live there.
Q Oh, okay, but it, is it the
same house that Peter hurt your bum in?
A Same house that Peter hurt my
bum in.
Q Peter hurt?
A Yeah, yeah.
Q Peter hurt your bum in the
bathroom, aye?
A Yep.
Q And?
A And that was the same house.
Q As where [male name] hurt
your bum in the bedroom. And how many times did [male name] do that to you
bum with his penis?
A Lots.
Q Where was Peter when [male
name] did that?
A He was doing another
children. Hey, this is a real mirror.
Q Yeah it is, a real mirror.
What’s that?
A Me, some of it.
Q There’s a wee, um.
A That can be [male name]’s.
Q A wee seat to go in front of
the mirror maybe.
A Now it would look dumb.
Q Does it, doesn’t it fit. Okay
so when [male name] hurt your bum, whereabouts were your clothes?
A When [male name] hurt bum
whereabouts were my clothes? I still had my pants on all the time, yeah. The
only time I got all my clothes off was in the bath.
Q Okay and whereabouts were
[male name]’s clothes?
A And he pulled his pants down.
Q He pulled his pants down.
A And that’s all.
Q And whereabouts?
A He only wanted to have a bath
with me, I think, and that’s the only time when any of them pulled pants down
on me.
Q Pulled your pants down or
took all your clothes off?
A Took, that’s when I had, um,
a bath with Peter, that’s the only one with me, that’s the only one that took
all his clothes off.
Q So when [male name] did that
to your bum in the bedroom, what did, how did his penis hurt your bum?
A How did his penis hurt my
bum?
Q Mmm, what did it do to hurt
it?
A Oh, well, it just hurt it. It
didn’t really hurt it, it hurt me inside.
Q Oh, okay, so did his penis,
ah, show me what his penis did to your bum.
A What his penis did to my bum?
Q Yeah, you can use this pen …
A Well, he sticked his penis in
there [indicates by putting pen against doll’s posterior].
Q Right, so.
A Like that.
Q Did that go in the poo hole
or just in the crack?
A In the crack.
Q What about Peter’s, did his
go in the poo hole or the crack?
A The crack.
Q And it didn’t really hurt
your bum but it hurt you inside?
A Yeah.
Q What did it make your bum
feel like then when [male name] did it?
A It felt bad.
Q It felt bad, yeah. Um and whereabouts
in the bedroom did that happen?
A Mmm, whereabouts in the
bedroom did that happen. Well it was near the bed.
Q Was it on the bed or on the
floor?
A The curtains were pulled so
no one could see.
Q Who pulled the curtains?
A Mmm, I don’t know. When I got
there they were already closed.
Q Okay.
A With the light on.
Q The light was on. And was
that, did it happen on the bed or on the floor.
A It, um, happened on the
floor.
Q And how did and did any
other, has anyone else that’s, has anyone else done that to your bum, put
their penis on your bum before or not?
A No.
Q So that’s Peter and [male
name].
A And, um, and three other guys
and one of them was old.
Q Three other guys put their
penis on your bum?
A Yeah and one of those three
guys were old.
Q Okay.
A Um.
Q How many times did it happen
altogether?
A How many times did it happen?
I want to go to the loo.
Q Do you? Can you hang on or do
we need to go now?
A Need to go now.
Q Okay, I’ll take you to the
toilet. It’s 4.35.
Q Okay 4.38. Um, right, now we
were just talking about, um, [male name] in the bedroom putting his penis on
your bottom, bum. Now where, where was Peter when, when this was happening?
A Um, he was watching.
Q When, when you were, um, when
[male name] was putting his penis.
A He had a camera in his hand
taking photos.
Q Who had a camera in his hand?
A Peter.
Q Peter had a camera.
A Mmm and he took photos.
Q What did he take photos of.
A All the na, all the nasty
things that [male name] did.
Q What, which thing?
A And then, and they, and then
he said the swear words and he did all those bad things. Well, while he was
doing it he was laughing.
Q He was laughing. So you know
when he took photos?
A Mmm.
Q Which nasty things did he
take photos of?
A All the, of all the nasty
things that happened like, um, um, like when he said all the swear words and
how his, um, white stuff got on the floor that was at crèche.
Q Did he take photos of that or
not?
A Yeah.
Q What else did he take photos
of?
A Um, he took photos when he
smacked my bum. He done that heaps of times and he said you’re a fucken
arsehole and so is your family and then he said I’ll turn and I’ll get your
brothers and I’ll fucken bury them and then they’ll be the end of … because
you’re a fucken arseholes.
Q So before you said that Peter
was watching and he took photos.
A Yep.
Q Of you?
A Well, at, at crèche he said,
well, he just like I said, then, well, he said that at crèche and I was too
afraid to tell.
Q Mmm.
A Hey, I’ll tell you a joke
that you do to people when they’re annoying you. You go like that and it’s
cracking an egg like that.
Q Oh I know that one, and then
you go like this and it feels like the egg is running down your head.
A Yep.
Q Who else, did anyone else
take photos of you or not?
A No.
Q And what sort of camera was
it?
A Um, it was the normal camera.
Q Yeah, was it a camera like my
camera or was it a different one?
A It was, it was a camera like,
um, it was normal camera.
Q Was it a camera that you go
to click or was it?
A Yeah, it was one of those, so
I made a camera today at home.
Q Did you?
A Yeah, it’s gone with my
friend.
Q Mmm.
A I made him, I threatened him…
Q You threatened him to help
you?
A I threatened him to help me.
Q Oh, okay, so, so some other
men did that to your bum too, is that right?
A Yep.
Q And where was Peter when the
other men were doing it?
A Um, he was taking photos and,
and round and about … children.
Q So who was, did any other
kids, which kids, oh, oh you told me, um [male name] went there, didn’t he?
Which kid went the most?
A Um, [male name].
Q Did you always go with other
kids or did you sometimes go by yourself?
A Ah once I went on my own and
it was pretty scary.
Q What, what made it scary when
you went on your own?
A Cos no, ah, other kid was
there. He could only do bad things to me and all the other and all the, ah,
all his friends were standing around there laughing.
Q At you?
A Yep.
Q What were they laughing at,
what was Peter doing?
A They was, they were laughing
while Peter was doing and he said don’t worry, Peter, he’ll never tell.
Q Which one said that?
A All his friends.
Q And what was Peter doing to
you when they were laughing?
A Oh, well, just like I said in
the past.
Q Yeah, which one, was he doing
with his penis, on, your hand on his penis or?
A Yeah …
Q Or the penis on the bum or
the swear words or what?
A Pen … putting his penis on my
bum.
Q And you just went there by
yourself once?
A Yep.
Q And they took photos. What
did they do with the photos?
A What? Oh, they probably
hanged them up in their, um, house and every morning they probably laugh at
them.
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