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Transcripts of Interviews with
child witnesses
Bart
Dogwood aged 6, 4th interview recorded 6
Aug 1992
(Names as used
in the book "A City Possessed"
)
Q So tell me what you’ve come
back to say.
A Oh,
I’ve forgotten some bits.
Q Yeah but we’ll start with the
things you remember first.
A Um.
Q What’s the easiest thing to
start with, what’s it about?
A The
things Peter’s friends did to me.
Q The things Peter’s friends
did, mm mmm. Whereabouts did Peter’s friends do
things to you?
A They had a circle on the
floor and they um … and they all had tins round their necks and there was
also, um, a, Marie, Gaye and Jan were at the house. Not Jan, well the lady
was another one.
Q Mm, who’s Marie, Jan and Gaye?
A They’re people at the crčche
and [male name] was there and [male name] and Peter was there and he used to
be at the crčche.
Q So, um, and, and which house
are you talking about? Where did that happen?
A The
two-storied house in Hereford
Street.
Q And, um, so when Marie and
Jan and Gaye were there, what was happening?
A Um, they were all dancing
around in a circle and, um, me and some other kids
were in the middle.
Q So, what?
A Not moving … and then they
told us to kick each other.
Q So were you playing a
sing-song or Ring a Ring a Rosie or?
A No … play a game because, um,
all the people were in the circle. They already had it drawn on the board
and, oh, I know how to draw it anyway.
Q Do you?
A Yes and I will.
Q … some other bits down there
so the camera can …
A What’s that thing on the
table there?
Q That’s the microphone for
our, for our voices to go in. And here’s, here’s
some pens. Draw me the circle …
A Mmm.
Q What colour’s that?
A Blue … I don’t want the fry,
the fry, frying pan for chips.
Q You don’t want the frying
pan. Okay, you can draw me the circle …
A Oh,
well, it was on it was a board.
Q It was on a board, was it?
A Yeah, a board like that. And
this is the legs holding it up.
Q So was this like, ah, in a
blackboard at crčche, was this, this, you know?
A No, no, it was, um, a, it
was, um, it’s a board and that had, those are the clips there, it had clips
to hold the piece of paper on. Ahhh ummmmmm. Then I was drawing on a piece of paper because
those were the people and there was people playing guitars. They were there,
there, there, there, there, there, there, there and there.
Q So the crosses on the outside
of that circle are the people playing guitars?
A Yeah.
Q What sort of people were they
playing guitars?
A Oh,
they were Peter’s friends and family. Um, there was … and some of my friends
in the middle and then we had to kick each other … and we had turns after
that, um, but when, when we finished it, um, Peter came into the middle and
done bad things to them cos there was about, ah,
God knows, nine kids in the middle.
Q Can you?
A And af, and after that they went in the middle and started
hurting the kids and if all of them didn’t get a turn, some of the kids would
have to have two turns.
Q Okay.
A And
they and they already had it, um, drawn on the floor like that.
Q What did they have drawn on
the floor?
A How, how he done the circle.
Q So on this circle here, on
the big circle on the outside.
A Yeah.
Q What was round, what was the?
A The
adults were going walking around and the kids were just staying still in the
middle there, kicking each other.
Q Okay, so I could write adults
there and whereabouts were the kids.
A Mmm.
Q In there so we’ll put the
kids. Which kids, could you tell me the names kids.
A Oh
the ones from yesterday, [male name], [male name], [female name].
Q Mmm.
A And
one no and …
Q And what?
A And …
Q Yeah, okay. Any other girls?
There’s [female name] there? Were there any other girls there or not?
A Oh,
yeah, there was except I can’t remember their names.
Q Okay. So, okay, so, um, and
when, when you were having to kick each other in the
middle, where was Marie and?
A Gaye.
Q Gaye and Jan.
A And Jan.
Q Where was?
A Oh,
they were dancing around the circles there.
Q What sort of clothes did they
have on. Did they have their crčche teacher clothes
on or something else?
A …
Q Pardon?
A They,
they had normal clothes on.
Q What about the, what about
the people playing guitars?
A They had normal clothes on.
They all had normal clothes on and the kids were naked in the middle.
Q So how how.
A And Marie, Marie, Gaye and
Jan pretended, ah, to sex.
Q Who did she pretend to sex
to?
A Um.
Q Oh …
A Jan.
Q Oh, Marie and Gaye did you
say?
A Yeah, they were going to sex
and there was a photo taken and ah.
Q What does sex mean. What does
it mean when they pretend to sex?
A Oh.
Q You could get two dolls and
show me. Get two, two, get a Marie and a.
A Ohhhh.
Q Yeah, get a Marie doll and a
Gaye doll and show me what they mean, what you mean by pretend to sex.
A Ummmm, mmmm, okay.
Q Oh, which, who’s that. Just
get two dolls and show me, two women dolls, and show me how they pretended to
sex.
A Marie.
Q Yep.
A Um,
Gaye.
Q Okay.
A … like, like that.
Q Did they have their clothes
on or?
A Off.
Q Who took their clothes off?
A They did.
Q And was that? Did they do
that inside the circle or somewhere out, outside the circle or somewhere
else?
A They were doing it there.
Q Inside the circle, is that
right?
A Yeah, about there. It wasn’t
about there, that wasn’t where the kids were, it was about there.
Q So what were the kids doing
when Marie and Gaye pretended to sex?
A Mmm,
just, oh, Marie and Gayle were trying to make the kids laugh.
Q Mmm,
what did the kids, what did you feel like when Marie and Gaye did that?
A Bad, sad and bad.
Q Any other feelings about it?
A …
Q And did they say anything to
you or not?
A Mmm no.
Q So you know when, bef, when you know, did they dance round? Hey, did they
dance round the circle before they sexed or after they sexed? Which one did
they do first, dancing or sexing?
A Sexing.
Q And when they were dancing
round.
A Mmm
Q Did they have their clothes
on or off?
A On.
Q Mmm, so was there anyone
else dancing round with them or not?
A When?
Q Dancing around the circle
with them or not?
A Yeah all the other …
Q Oh, okay, and where was
Peter?
A He was taking photos with
his, um, mother.
Q Which, whereabouts in Peter’s
house did this happen?
A In the dining room.
Q What, what else was in the
room that, that, that?
A Well they cleared all the
stuff and it was all ready. How to do it, it was already painted on the
table.
Q Wha,
what was painted on the table?
A Um, um, I mean on the floor
it was, yeah, so they knew what to do go around.
Q I see. So what colour paint,
was it painted in?
A White.
Q And, um, when they were
dancing around, what, you know, the people who
played the guitars?
A Yeah.
Q What’s, what were they
playing, what tune were they playing?
A Ahh,
well, they were just playing a tune that I didn’t know the name of.
Q Do you know, do you remember
it, can you can you hum it for me?
A No. I can’t remember it, all
I can remember is they were playing guitars.
Q Mmm.
A And
they had knives there.
Q What did they do? Where were,
what did they do with the?
A Then, then they thought they
were magic … abracadabra, I’ll bring a knife in my hand and then they brought
a knife out of their hand and it was already in there and they pretended they
were cowboys.
Q How did they pretend they
were cowboys?
A …
Q How did,
what?
A White ss, ss, suits all down.
Q They what.
A They had white suits all.
Q What, who had white suits?
A The
people that were playing the guitars, they had white suits. They, while they
were doing that they pretended to be a cowboy.
Q Mm mmm,
so the,y they had white
suits on. Was that, which ones had white suits?
A The
people that are playing the guitar.
Q Oh, the guitar, okay. And
have you, you know the tune that they were playing on their guitar. Have you,
like, have, are there any kids’ tunes that sound
like what they were playing? Did it sound familiar, did it sound?
A It sounded like Baa Baa Black Sheep.
Q Did it?
A Yeah.
Q Is that, do you think it
really did or is that something that you?
A It, I don’t, it, I don’t
think it was except it sounded a bit like it.
Q Mm mmm.
So was this just like a game at crčche or something?
A No, there was kid. What, what
was I talking about again?
Q This, this thing in the
circle and that.
A No, it wasn’t a game at
crčche and the kids were in the middle were naked.
Q Okay, all right, now we’ll
just keep going.
A And
they and when they were finished.
Q … it’s 10 minutes past 3.
A … um.
Q Yeah.
A Everybody were going into the
middle and hurting the child, start hurting the children, and if, um, all
them, they were getting … children would have to put up to with it twice.
Q Yeah, okay, so they kicking
and then hurting. Now who made?
A Kicking and punching and
hurting.
Q So who made those kids do,
what made the kids do kicking and punching to each other?
A Cos all the all the
people said.
Q What did they say?
A Kick and punch yourself or
I’ll stab you with this knife.
Q And what did you feel like
when they said that?
A Well I didn’t, I didn’t feel
anything, I didn’t really, ah, I didn’t know what to
do.
Q Mm mmm,
so did you kick and punch the other kids or not?
A Yeah they actually do it to
me too.
Q Right, so show me. Can you
sit up for a minute or, yeah, just or tell, okay, so where did you get kicked
and who kicked you?
A … all the kids.
Q Yeah which ones?
A Only
[male name].
Q Where did [male name] kick
you.
A Mm,
on in here.
Q Your leg.
A Mmm.
Q And did anybody, any other
kids, have to kick you or not.
A No because he, cos, ah, that would be me and that would be [male name]
and that would be the other kids. … that be another
…
Q Okay, I might, um, and where
did the kids get kicked the most?
A Um.
Q That’s a body you’re drawing,
isn’t it?
A Yeah.
Q Yep and some legs, yeah put a wee.
A …
Q Put a wee cross with this and
show me where the kids got kicked the most.
A Um.
Q You have to put the clicker
down, yep. What’s the part called?
A In the balls and in the, in
the knee caps there…
Q So what would the, um, boys,
if it was balls, wouldn’t it?
A Yep, um, if it was the girls
it would be in the vagina.
Q So they, so they had to kick
each other in the balls and in the vagina?
A Yeah.
Q What did that make them feel
like?
A Sad, horrible.
Q What did you feel like?
A Sad.
Q Yeah and what did your balls
feel like?
A Um
they hurt.
Q How many kicks did you get in
your balls?
A About five.
Q Were you standing up or
sitting down when you got kicked?
A Standing up. But it’s like I
said, that be us in a circle.
Q Yeah.
A Standing just kicking each
other like that?
Q Yep.
A And
there’s be one, it would be only about that when we were kicking each other.
Q Yeah, okay, and how long did
you have to kick each other for?
A Ten
minutes.
Q After you finished kicking
each other, what did you feel like?
A It hurt.
Q And then what happened? Who
first said that, I mean how, what made you stop kicking the children?
A Then, and then they put us in
the oven.
Q When did they do that?
A At the house.
Q Before they hurt you or after
they hurt you or on another day?
A After they hurt you and they
pretended to eat us.
Q Okay, well.
A Then they said, “If you tell
your mum we’ll put you in the oven and we’ll kill you.”
Q And, um, okay, so let’s just,
so the kids had to kick and punch each other cos
the people said things to them to make them do that and Marie and Jan and.
A Gaye.
Q Gaye were
there and Peter and mum were taking photos and the other men?
A Yeah and the people round
there had eyes like that, like that [indicates by pulling corners of eyes to
give oriental appearance].
Q Which people had eyes like
that?
A The
people that were Peter’s friends.
Q Were they the people who were
dancing or the people playing guitars?
A People were dancing and
playing guitars.
Q So how many of them had eyes
like that?
A … some of them.
Q … or just some of them?
A Some of them.
Q Some of them.
A Yep.
Q So were some of them like you
and me or not?
A Yeah.
Q With eyes like what we’ve
got?
A Yep.
Q Is that right?
A Yeah.
Q So some have those sorts of
eyes and some have our sorts of eyes. Is that right?
A Yep.
Q Mmm,
um, what colour skin did the people have?
A Brown.
Q What else? Did everybody have
brown skin or not?
A Not everyone.
Q What colour skin did Ma, did
Marie have?
A White.
Q How many times were Marie and
Jan and Gaye in the circle, how many times?
A Mmm, oh, about three.
Q Okay, all right, now when,
when adults came into the circle and did hurting, what happened? How did they
hurt the kids? How did they hurt you?
A Um,
was always like I said in the past.
Q Mmm,
could you just um tell me what they did?
A Mmm, they smack your bum and kick you and punch there again.
Q Mmm,
and were your clothes still off or had they put them back on again?
A So they were still off.
Q So who took your, how did
your clothes get off in the beginning?
A Um
we took them off.
Q What made you take them off?
A Cos
they said or they would kill us.
Q And what, where did your
clothes go after you took them off?
A Pardon.
Q Where did your clothes go?
A Oh
they were outside the circle.
Q And [B], so the people that
were hurting you.
A Mmm.
Q Let’s ah, I’ll just get one
of these dolls again.
A …
Q Aye.
A This
is a boy …
Q Show me whereabouts you got
hurt. You need, does the doll need.
A There … [indicates penis].
Q Could you call?
A There and there [indicates
posterior and face].
Q And, ya,
so that’s your, what’s this part?
A Your
balls.
Q The balls, how did your balls
get hurt?
A I mean penis.
Q Penis, how did your penis get
hurt?
A Um, they put needles up them.
Q Who put needles up your
penis?
A The
um, the um, people when, then, and there was this one, [male name], used to
work at the crčche and he was in the circle.
Q What colour hair did he have?
A Brownish.
Q So which one put the needles
up your penis?
A He did. I think it was, his name was [male name] anyway.
Q Mm mmm.
What did the needles feel like when they went up your penis?
A What
did the needle feel like when it went up my penis. Ah, it felt sore, blood
came out.
Q Blood came out. Where did the
blood go, [B]?
A On the floor.
Q Mm mmm.
Did it go anywhere else?
A No.
Q And did the blood stay on the
floor or not?
A No they cleaned it up.
Q Which ones cleaned it up?
A Um, oh, Peter. When it was
all over the people with the guitars did.
Q Mm mmm.
A Cos Peter, when he made them the deal.
Q What was the deal?
A Ah,
it was the people with the gui, the gui, guitars.
Q Mmm.
A After they, um, after when
they had finished they knew the blood would come out of the floor because
they were going to do it in the first place and when it happened Peter said
they had, um, they had to clean it up.
Q And what did the needle look
like?
A It was sharp …
Q Was it, yeah?
A …
Q Oh, right.
A It was sharp, sharp, sharp.
Q And what sort of needles are
they? What, what’s, what those sort needles usually used for?
A … only dick, oh, um, they
usually for sewing up things.
Q What’s that?
A … it’s so sharp so … and …
Q Oh, I see, lovely, it was
sharp. And how many, how many, ah, so when [male name] did that.
A Mmm
Q What did Marie, who was there
when [male name] did that?
A What
do you mean?
Q Who was there when [male
name] put the needles up, which?
A They were all ss.
Q All those ones.
A They were all in the circle
and then after that, um, they cleaned up the blo,
blood, put, took us back to crčche.
Q Who took you back to crčche?
A Well, first we went to the
building with the trap door.
Q First you went to the
building with the trap door?
A Yeah.
Q And what happened there?
A All
the … fell down the trap door again.
Q Did anything else happen in
that building?
A Pardon.
Q Did anything else happen in
that building, the trap door building?
A No, oh, they left us there
for half an hour like I said, and this time when we went there, everyone in
with them and me, and me and my friends, um, were left there and the kids in
the circle was, um [name].
Q Yeah.
A Oh,
when we got back to crčche it got better, except, um, they cleaned up about
an hour later.
Q They cleaned up what?
A They cleaned up the blood up
on the floor an hour later.
Q And, [B], so, so were you
standing up or lying down or what were you doing when they hurt your penis,
when he hurt your penis with the needle?
A What
was I doing when he hurt?
Q Yeah. Were you standing or
sitting or lying or?
A Standing.
Q Standing. Cos
I guess if someone hurt your penis you’d want to run away, so what stopped
you from running away?
A Cos
I was too scared.
Q So.
A Much too scared.
Q So where was and, and one
hand would have been, one hand of [male name]’s would have been touching the
needle. Where was his other hand.
A … he was on holding us so we
couldn’t run way.
Q Whereabouts did he hold you?
A Under there like that
[indicates by holding doll under arms].
Q Okay and did anyone else hold
you like that to stop you running away or not?
A Yep. Peter.
Q Mmm
what did, what were the, the woman doing, what was Jan and Marie and Gaye
doing when they were hurting your penis like that?
A Well they’d they were hurting
the penises too and if it wasn’t the penises it would be the girls’ vaginas.
Q So whose penises got hurt?
Which, which boys penises?
A What
do you mean?
Q Which boys’ penises? All of
them or just some of them?
A All
of them.
Q And what about the girls’
vaginas, all the vaginas or just some of them?
A Pardon.
Q All the vaginas or just some
of them?
A Not all of them.
Q So, who, who, which, who did,
which child did Gaye hurt?
A Umm,
all of us.
Q Which child did Marie hurt?
A Um,
[girl’s name, K].
Q Anyone else?
A Anyone
else?
Q Did Marie hurt any other kids
penises or?
A Did Marie hurt any other
kids?
Q Yeah or not?
A No.
Q …
A …
Q What do you want? You’re
going to get the doll are you. Bring it over there,
would you, so I can.
A I want to do something.
Q What are you going to do?
A Play with them.
Q Mmm
…
A … going to change the clothes
on the dolls.
Q Okay, turn around with them.
Are you going to use those ones over there.
A Yeah. those
are pyjamas things.
Q And, so, hey.
A Mmm.
Q How do you know, um, what,
who did Gaye hurt?
A She hurt, um, [K] and [name].
Q And how do you know that?
A Because
I saw it.
Q Mm mmm.
Um so, so these, after the kicking and punching and the hurting started, and
that was on the kids’ penises and vaginas with needles, did anything else
hurt the kids’ penis, did anything else hurt your penis?
A Did anything else hurt my
penis?
Q Or not?
A No.
Q Aye.
A No.
Q Just the needles?
A Mmm, yep.
Q And. Hey, [B].
A Mmm.
Q Did, did any other part of
you get hurt in that circle or not?
A Did any other part of me get
hurt in that circle?
Q … I know that the kids had to
hurt each other. But and the adults hurt your penis, did the adult, did the
adults hurt any other part or you or not?
A No.
Q Hey.
A No, I feel sick.
Q You feel sick, do you?
A I feel like spewing up.
Q Do you. What’s making you
feel sick do you know?
A Well, that’s why I’m away
from school today.
Q Mmm,
have you been sick today yet?
A Pardon.
Q Have you been sick today?
A Um
no.
Q Mmm,
where’s the sick feeling?
A In my tummy.
Q Oh. So who was the first
person you told about [male name].
A Um,
Mum.
Q Mm mmm.
What did [male name] look like?
A He was tall and he had brown
hair.
Q Mmm.
A He used to work at crčche.
Q Mm mmm.
How do you know it was the same [male name]?
A Cos I, I recognised him.
Q And who was the first person
you told about Marie and Gaye and Jan being there?
A Ah,
I told Mum first.
Q You told Mum first. So, so
what stopped you from telling me yesterday?
A Oh I
just remembered today.
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