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Note
- peterellis.org.nz : Names of children changed
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Dr Karen Zelas
MBChB DPM MRCPsych
FRANZCP MNZAPC
CONSULTANT PSYCHIATRIST
St Elmo Center 47 Hereford Street
PO Box 3221 Christchurch New Zealand
Telephone (03) 365-4073 Fax (03)
365-5742
28 August 1992
Det Sgt. John Ell
CIB
Christchurch
Dear John
Re VIDEOTAPED INTERVIEWS WITH TOMMY
BANDER (CHILD "X") AND CHILD "Z"
As requested, I have reviewed the videotapes of the Specialist Services
interviews with Tommy and "Z" with a view to determining the likely
credibility of the information disclosed in them and matters arising from
those interviews which might be useful to follow up.
1. Credibility and Risk of Parental Influence
"Z"'s tapes were made in March while Tommy's were not recorded
until May and August. This makes all the more significant certain comments
made by both children, particularly little things that may not have been
known to parents. At the time "Z" was interviewed, my understanding
is that parents generally were not considering the involvement of other
adults nor speculating about nor questioning their children on what they
believed to he characteristics of `ritual' abuse, yet she makes reference in
her last interview to other adults.
It is clear that "Z"'s parents elicited disclosures of abuse by
Peter ELLIS by highly leading questioning. Tommy's brother and parents did
the same. In Tommy's case, the parents subjected him to intensive
interrogation pertaining to `ritual' abuse between the three August
interviews which were on consecutive days. Tommy would then disclose in the
next interview with Sue Sidey the information elicited by his parents the
previous night.
These facts could make it easy to dismiss the children's statements as having
little probative value whether or not they might be accurate. It also makes
the similarities between their statements extra important, particularly in
matters unlikely to have been influenced by the parents.
Both children refer to the following:
* being abused by PETER in the creche
toilet
* being afraid of PETER?
* PETER making threats regarding
disclosure
* being out of the Creche with Peter
* being at a house they identify as
PETER's
* travelling in `PETER's' car
* other children being present when
sexual things have happened, especially at places outside the Creche
* other adults being present at
`PETER's' house and being involved in sexual behaviour with children
* sexual abuse of themselves at
`PETER's' house
* sexual abuse of themselves by one or
more men other than PETER
* __PETER watching and laughing while
they were abused_
* __sometimes being in a different
room from the other children while sexual things were being done to
themselves or others__
* __being at a house with a
ladder/fire-escape__ (? belonging to
one of Peter's friends)
* __reference to white clothes being
worn__
The first two of the above which are underlined are details which I think it
unlikely that parents would have led. The next is something that would have
been spontaneous, at least at the time "Z" made the reference. The
last item underlined was a minor comment made by "Z" during an
interview which at that stage of the inquiry is extremely unlikely to have
been led by a parent and probably not even known to her parents and therefore
not a subject of conversation between adults.
2. Named Children
Both children have mentioned other children being involved, but they do not
refer to the same children. Tommy refers to "Z". "Z"
refers to `"P"' (seeing "Q" and "P" suck
PETER's penis at Creche), but I do not know whether this is Tommy. This needs
to be determined, perhaps from "Z"'s mother.
"Z" refers to:
"Q"
"P"
Archer
"N" (touching her vagina)
Tommy refers to:
"Z"
"N"
Bruce
Dennis
"Y"
?Gideon
I would suggest that all children mentioned by either "Z" or Tommy
have their videos/transcripts reviewed.
3. Named Adults
Both children named adults but the only consistency is their naming of
Peter ELLIS. Other adults were referred to as being present or
involved only outside the Creche.
"Z" named:
JOSEPH
JULIE
AMIE
JAMES
Tommy named:
PETER'S MOTHER
ROGER or ROBERT (a name possibly
infuenced by parental questioning)
ANDREW
GAYE }
MARIE } Creche staff
JAN }
SPIKE ( `not his real name' )
BOULDERHEAD
Other unnamed friends of Peter's, most male, some female.
The last three are (or were) Creche teachers. Tommy said at one point that
ROBERT used to be a Creche teacher, but since he did not identify this abuser
initially as being a Creche teacher and because of the evidence in the
mother's notes of conversations with Tommy, it is hard to know whether there
might be two `Roberts'. ANDREW was
also said to have been a past Creche teacher
The following descriptions were given by Tommy~
* ROBERT as being older with grey hair and a beard but also, as being a young
person with a few whiskers, darkish/blacky-brown hair and a bit bald
* PETER'S MOTHER as having grey bushy hair with curls
4. Further Areas to Pursue
i) Cars
Tommy mentions a 'greyish white' car belonging to Peter's friend who was
'older, with grey hair and a beard'.
This person was later named ROGER/ROBERT.
Both children refer to a `black' car. "Z" said it was Peter's.
Tommy said there was a `flash black car' which belonged to GAYE and used to
be parked around the corner from Creche. Tommy also refered to black Toyota
Corona with a furry grey interior, belonging to one of Peter's friends,
SPIKE.
In her lest interview, in speaking of going to Sumner beach alone with PETER,
"Z" speaks of going in a white car:
(ii) Peter's Mother
I think It would be useful to interview Peter's mother to determine her
contact with the Creche children. Did
she ever go on outings with the children, babysit them either alone or with
Peter, take them in a car? Has she
and/or Peter taken photos of the children either at the Creche or
elsewhere? Where does she live and in
what places has Peter lived over the relevant period? Has she had Creche children in her own
home? Is she aware of Peter taking
children on outings either alone or with other staff members? If so, where to? Does Peter have a living Grandmother and,
if so, has Peter ever taken children to her house? Does Peter have a camera? Has she seen him taking photos of any of
the children? etc.
What are the names of friends Peter has had over the last few years?
Does she meet Tommy's description (grey clothes and bushy hair with curls)?
(iii) Tommy's Family
It would be useful to interview Tommy's parents to ascertain Tommy's sexual
knowledge and experiences. Prior to disclosures, what had they or his
brothers taught him about sexual matters?
What is parent's attitude towards sexual activity in front of their
children? Has Tommy ever seen them
have sexual intercourse? Is there any
chance he might have seen them making love without their knowledge? To their knowledge would he have observed
any one in the family masturbate? To
ejaculation?
I think each of the older sons should be interviewed separately and without
them being able to communicate between interviews. They were actually the first to elicit a
disclosure from Tommy, but, more importantly one would want to ascertain
whether there has ever been any sexual activity between them and Tommy or
whether he has observed either of them masturbate to ejaculation. Have they talked to him about (or shown
him) anal intercourse?
When did the family live at "Everywhere" Road?
iv) Tommy's Teacher
It would be useful to interview Tommy's current school teacher regarding his
academic ability, behaviour, social adjustment. Of particular relevance would be to know
her views of his creativity,
imagination, story-telling/writing ability and whether he tells
significant lies or makes up stories about people. Her views of his parents and any pressures
she thinks the child might be under may also be helpful.
v) "Z"'s Mother
What does "Z" call Tommy?
vi) Creche
Although I do not know what the Police may have on file from interviews with
Creche staff, there appear to be some areas that warrant clarification. Since Tommy has referred to MARY as being
present when he has come back from abusive outings with Peter and since he
has stated that she was not involved whereas he claims other female teachers
were, she would be a good person to interview (?again).
"Z" said her favourite teachers were MARIE and DEBBIE, but MARIE
has been implicated by Tommy.
Areas of interest continue to centre round staff involvement with children
outside the Creche during Creche hours, going in cars (whose?, where to?),
the children's reactions/behaviours/demeanours when they have been out with
Peter alone. "Z" claims that
she told MARIE what Peter was doing to her and that MARIE did not believe
her. Peter was there and said he did not do it -
does she recall this? What children did Peter habitually care for and
take on outings?
Also, enquiry as to the games the staff play with children at Creche. Do they
play circle games eg Ring-a-rosie? Do
they draw circles on the floor and get the children to stand inside
them? Do they play guitars and sing
while children dance in circles? Do
they play any games that require children to stand still in the centre of a
circle with the adults on the outside?
Do they have the children take their clothes off in hot weather?
(inside?) Do they have them play such
games without clothes on?
Do they take photos of children at Creche?
Has Peter ever taken photos of them with still or video cameras. Does he have a camera of his own?
Was there a staff member called Robert (or Roger) at some time? And was there
an Andrew?
vii) Buildings
Both children have identified being at
`Peter's house", which does not, of course, mean that it is necessarily
a house that Peter has lived in. It
also seems they may have been taken to a number of different houses.
Tommy distinguishes a `building' from the house he called `Peter's
house' - a building with a `library in it'. He does
not identify this as _the_ Library but this is not impossible. I think the children have had trips to the
Canterbury Public Library with Creche staff.
He said the `library building' was grey and had a `trapdoor' in it. He
speaks of `a trap that goes down' that they were made to stand on and tunnels
with books like a maze. There is some
confusion as to whether the building where sexual things took place is the
same one the books were in.
The identification of the Masonic Lodge does not spring from any spontaneous
disclosure from Tommy but from his parents taking him to the building and
asking if he had been there before.
However, does the Masonic Lodge have a library in the basement? If one has access to the basement, does
this allow access by internal stairs to rooms on the levels above? Tommy apparently said when asked by his
mother if he had been upstairs, `Joy,
I've been through the whole building'. His interviews refer to two-or-more
storeyed buildings and activities taking place on different levels.
I trust these comments will be helpful. I certainly hope it does not sound as
though I am trying to teach you to suck eggs! It is an extremely difficult inquiry with
such young children and it is most important that their statements are
neither dismissed as fanciful nor accorded unwarranted weight primarily
because of parental anxieties.
I would value the opportunity to discuss these and related matters with you.
Yours sincerely
(Signature)
Dr Karen Zelas
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