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Allegations
of Abuse in Institutions |
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Linda
Clark ... [start missed]
.... is a deaconess in the Presbyterian Church who once worked at this
children’s home. She’s now supporting some of the complainants. I spoke to
her before we came on air this morning - began by asking her when she first
became aware of the claims of sexual abuse. Mavis
Van Dalen: There was a reunion
organised for the children of the children’s home to which I went, and I
heard a comment from one young woman to another. And some months later I
queried it with Kathleen who told me what had happened to her. Linda
Clark: This is Kathleen
Batchelor who is one of the complainants who has made her name public. Mavis
Van Dalen: Yes. Yes. Linda
Clark: So when you heard
the kind of passing reference, or comments, between two of these people -what
was going through your mind? Mavis
Van Dalen: I thought it was an odd
comment and that it didn’t sound as if things were really nice or pleasant.
And that’s what made me a bit perturbed about it. Linda
Clark: So you were
perturbed and unsettled? Mavis
Van Dalen: Yeah. Linda
Clark: You had previously
worked at this home. Mavis
Van Dalen: Yes! Yes! Two great
years of my life. Linda
Clark: Way back in the
fifties? Mavis
Van Dalen: [laughs] Yes, way back
then. Linda
Clark: But when you were
at the home, this was in the days before Walter Lake, the man at the centre
of all these allegations. Mavis
Van Dalen: That’s correct. Linda
Clark: He wasn’t at the
home at the same time. Mavis
Van Dalen: I didn’t ever meet him
until the actual reunion, which was 1990. Linda
Clark: So when you worked
at the home, did you see any child abused? Mavis
Van Dalen: Oh no - we had a
wonderful superintendent. There was a couple who were cook and caretaker. No.
It was a very happy home because of the matron. No. It was utterly delightful
to me. Sometimes I’ve looked back and wished I’d stayed longer. Linda
Clark: When you then,
many years later, heard about this, and then you talked to Kathleen about it,
what did you think? Mavis
Van Dalen: I was horrified.
Because of course I still related to my children who were all under seven.
And to think this happened to children - the girls and that - and later I
found out boys - yeah, I was a bit incredulous. Linda
Clark: Did you think that
Kathleen was credible? Mavis
Van Dalen: Oh yes. I think when
something like this - or any problem - people when telling you, you know that
they’re not making things up. I never ever doubted any. I don’t doubt any
that I hear lately either. Linda
Clark: Because since then
you’ve gone on to meet some of the other complainants. Mavis
Van Dalen: Yes. Linda
Clark: And you’re
supporting them. Mavis
Van Dalen: Yes. Linda
Clark: At the time you
first heard about this, did you raise the issue with anybody in the church? Mavis
Van Dalen: Ah, I did some months
later. I contacted a minister whom I had trained with, and told him about it,
and he said he needed to see a group of men in the church. And I actually
rang three times because he moved up to Napier. And I felt until two days
ago, actually, that he had done nothing, because I didn’t hear anything. But
- can I relate this quickly to you - I rang a hairdresser yesterday to make
an appointment. She and her father were talking about the film on Saturday
[Sunday] night, and the father said, ‘Oh he was a mate of mine, I know him.
He was looking into that matter, he told me.’ So you see, my assumption was
wrong. But I can only go on what I’m told. Linda
Clark: But at the time,
as far as you knew... Mavis
Van Dalen: Nothing had been done. Linda
Clark: In terms of any
formal investigation. Mavis
Van Dalen: I didn’t know of
anything, all those years. Linda
Clark: What did you think
of that? Mavis
Van Dalen: Ah, I think I got busy
with married life and children, and just kept contact with Kathleen now and
again to see she was okay, and didn’t do anything. That’s horrible now. Linda
Clark: Do you feel bad
about that? Mavis
Van Dalen: Yeah, when I think of
it. Linda
Clark: Well, what would
you, what could you have done? Mavis
Van Dalen: Well I did know people
in the church of course, having trained there. And I was a church member. I
could have perhaps talked to them about it. Linda
Clark: Do you think that
the church bears any responsibility for this? Mavis
Van Dalen: As far as I’m concerned
they do. There is a difference between the Presbyterian Church and the
Presbyterian Support Services. Linda
Clark: Well that’s what
Trevor Roberts said to us yesterday. That the two are not the same. Mavis
Van Dalen: Yeah, but at the same
time people like Duncan that I spoke to was a member of the church, and to me
if the people there talked about it they always go to the PSA and say - well
this is what we’ve heard. I think many of the church people that knew, and I
mean church members, then they could have done something. Linda
Clark: Do you think it’s
possible that other church members did know? Mavis
Van Dalen: Yes I do. I’ve actually
read a letter, a copy of a letter, that a young woman wrote to St Andrews
Church in Wellington, and nothing was done. Linda
Clark: Again,
detailing... Mavis
Van Dalen: Yes. Well I don’t know
that there was specific details but definitely outlining what happened to
her. Linda
Clark: Your support for -
the fact that you’re now supporting these complainants, or some of these
complainants, how do other church members respond to that? Mavis
Van Dalen: I haven’t talked to
anyone about it. I don’t know. I just don’t know. Linda
Clark: Do you imagine it’s
seen as a good thing, or not such a good thing. I mean if you look at Trevor
Roberts reaction to all of this. He says - look, we can’t necessarily believe
these complainants, that this is their word against a dead man’s essentially,
and that the abuse has far from been established, has far from been proved. Mavis
Van Dalen: I watched that
programme and I just found that incredible. If you’re a Christian, and I
understand people in these top positions are basic Christians of the church. Linda
Clark: Well he’s a
member, Trevor Roberts is a member of the church. Mavis
Van Dalen: So you look into it to
see if this rumour could be correct, and also what he’s wanting. He’s wanting
private lives of people handed to him on a plate instead of talking to them.
And I do know that Kathleen and a minister and two other people went in and
they have put on tape what happened to them. And the promise was that they’d
get a copy. Now that man says that Kathleen had a tape herself. That’s
correct, but it didn’t work. So the office were going to give her a copy. And
for nearly three years, two and a half years or so, they have been trying to
get a copy of what they said in that interview and talk. Linda
Clark: And why do you
think the Presbyterian Support Services doesn’t want to give a copy of a tape
of that first conversation? Mavis
Van Dalen: I have no idea. I
suppose with all these business happened in other churches which has gone
back for a while, perhaps it’s having to face up to what people have done in
the past, having to take responsibility now, right now and in the future, is
something that they knew nothing about when they became church members. Linda
Clark: Well, also Trevor
Roberts said yesterday, it’s about protecting the assets of Presbyterian
Support Service. They don’t want to open themselves up to a massive
compensation claim. Mavis
Van Dalen: We has to talk to
people because, as far as I know, the majority of them don’t, the ones I
know, don’t a massive compensation. They want an open thing - we’re
dreadfully sorry this happened to you. But he’s trying to push it into court. Linda
Clark: So they just - so,
an apology, some kind of apology would be enough, would it? Mavis
Van Dalen: Well I think it would
to some. I just don’t know about the rest. Linda
Clark: In the meantime, I
mean I pick up my morning paper this morning, there’s a Tom Scott cartoon
which is about this, which paints the church and Presbyterian support in a
very negative light. Mavis
Van Dalen: Right. Linda
Clark: What do you feel
about that? Mavis
Van Dalen: Well I go back to my
roots, Linda. I went all through Bible Class, leader and involved. I go back
to it and I just can’t get a grip on it, frankly. I can’t understand why
people can’t just talk about it and sort it out. Especially when you know
that for generations people who were assaulted - and I’ve learnt this, I didn’t
know it before - are affected. And there’s all sorts of things go on. You
know. They have to have counselling. They can’t cope with things. Pressure
would possibly lead to suicide and all sorts of things, because of what
happened to them. And this goes down into - with their children, and even
their grandchildren. And I’ve got that from a minister originally, and I’ve
looked at it since. So people are affected. Linda
Clark: And the people you’ve
met, the people you’ve supported, do you think they’ve been affected? Mavis
Van Dalen: Oh definitely. Linda
Clark: Damaged, do you
think? Mavis
Van Dalen: Yes. I know one who -
how many years later? - all these years later has been having counselling for
years. And I’m meeting her and getting to know her children. And yes, it’s
very difficult. One left home because she had been brought up by ‘a sad
mother’. Imagine how the woman felt when this daughter said that to her. ‘I’ve
been brought up with a sad mother. I need a break.’ And the mother didn’t
realise of course, she was being a mother as far as she could. And she’s a
great person. I admire her. Linda
Clark: Is she sad? Mavis
Van Dalen: I haven’t seen that.
When I’m there she is brighter, I think. I don’t think she’s as sad as she
used to be because now there’s a bit of relief, isn’t there, with being able
to talk to someone about it, with Kathleen and the lawyer and whatever - or
whoever, I should say. Linda
Clark: So if this goes to
court, and it looks likely now, will you stick the distance, will you support
these people through a court case? Mavis
Van Dalen: Oh definitely. Oh yes.
I’m right behind them. I’m sorry. But I think this has been abominable. And
it’s by my church, my church people - whom I didn’t know but they’re still
part of my church, and I feel very - oh gosh - possessive, I suppose about
that. Oh yes. I’ll be with them. Linda
Clark: That was Mavis Van
Dalen who is a deaconess is the Presbyterian Church, speaking on behalf of
the 14 complainants now identified. All were children of a children’s home in
Berhampore in the fifties and sixties and claim they were sexually abused
while they were in the care of Presbyterian Support Services. More of that in
coming days, I suspect. |
