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Pages 298-322
Trial Testimony
1993
Testimony of Neville Barry Jenkins
The following is a direct copy of
the trial transcripts, including pages and line numbers.
Names of complainants and other identifying information have been deleted or
changed
to conform with Court suppression orders. (using guidelines
adopted by Lynley Hood in
her book "A City Possessed"
page 12). These changes have been
shown in italics.
The transcript includes obvious abbreviations.
Less obvious abbreviations or spelling mistakes have been underlined
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_
Page 298
NEVILLE BARRY JENKINS (SWORN)
I am a Detective with the Christchurch Police. I have been
involved with the inquiry into the ChCh Civic Child
Care Centre and
the accused Ellis. One of my tasks was
to examine the creche and
5 surrounding buildings at the Cranmer Centre
site and consider the
area as scenes of offending. The Cranmer Centre is situated on the
corner of Montreal and Armagh Streets. The particular creche is
situated on the southern side of the building and runs back from
Armagh Street towards Gloucester Street. A no. of photographs have
10 been
taken of the scene that are helpful in considering the area.
Ex.7004, booklet A, these photographs were taken at my direction
and in my presence. The Creche has
four accesses, four doorways
and the ones that appear to me to be most regularly used would be
the door to the Wombles End, the door to the Big
End on the
15 southern
side, another door adjacent to the boilerhouse in the
alleyway between the CSO door and the creche.
Witness ref. to plan
Ex.7003. The first door I refer to is
on the left side of the plan
as I hold it towards the jury. Above
the area marked Nursery and
Wombles. The
second door I refer to is on the same wall on
20 the
southern side of the building leading into the area marked Pre
School Room. The third door I refer to
is marked Entrance on the
opposite wall just beyond the boiler room. The fourth door that I
refer to runs off the quiet shared room which is marked Quiet
Shared Room. Armagh
STreet comes down on the right hand side and
25 Montreal
St. runs to the bottom of the picture running one way left
to right. In examining the creche the
keys to all doors in the
creche were located in two cups, two plastic cups inside the
supervisor's office. The locks to the
doors that I have described
were changed when the creche was closed and these keys were
30 accounted
for. All the keys were accounted for
apart from one I
located in the cup, a key marked 10A which has been produced as an
exhibit. 10190 and 10191 ref. to
witness. They are the keys. The
key marked 10A is a key normally associated with two lever locks my
inquiries show but has been altered so that it will operate 3 lever
35 locks. In the Cranmer centre I found that this
particular key
opened a door to the area referred to as a kitchen adjacent to room
206, this room being marked room 20 and is referred to as the
Library. Booklet B 7005, photograph 55
shows the particular door
Page 299
that I found this altered key to operate.
It is the door with the
frosted glass to the left of the double doors in the photograph.
Witness indicates,
the correct key for this particular door would
be an M10M key. Union 10A keys would normally be associated with
5 such buildings as the Arts Centre, they
would be a key particularly
used in an older building like this.
Key 10A I found in the
creche. I found that it would operate the
door to room 109, a room
operated by another tenant. However
this door was deadlocked and
to use it on that wouldn't open the door without the key to the
10 deadlock
as well.
BENCH This
doorway shown in photograph 55, can you show us by
reference to the plans where that is?
Looking at page 8, the room
marked Library, the room is adjacent to that at the top of the
stairway. We can see on the photo a
stairway, that photo is taken
15 from the
stairway. The double clear doors are
the entrance into
the library. The door with the frosted
glass is the entrance into
the room adjacent to the library with no number.
COUNSEL The
other room I referred to is 109, page 7 of the plans
and this looks onto Armagh Street, off the Armagh Street entrance.
20 Beginning
on page 7 of the Reference Book, this particular plan
depicts the ground floor of the Cranmer Centre in which the Civic
Creche was housed. It is marked Civic
Child Care Centre on the
right hand side of the page as I look at it.
On page 8 we see the
first floor, all the rooms on this floor are marked with numbers
25 beginning
200. The first floor and second floor
are shown clearly
in photograph 1 of Booklet A. The blue portion of photograph 1 is
the front of the Child Care Centre. This is looking at it from
Armagh Street.
Page 9 of the plans shows the second floor and
rooms marked in numbers beginning 300.
All of these rooms are used
30 by
different organisations and rented from the Arts Centre Trust.
On October 19th, 1992, I went to the Cranmer Centre and there I met
with Jan Gillanders of Social Welfare, a
complainant and the
complainant's parents. The complainant was Eli Laurel. The
purpose of meeting them there on that day was to allow him to look
35 around the
Cranmer Centre to see if he could indicate any
particular area of offending. We began
on the ground floor and
wandered around as a group. He showed
no particular interest in
any area. We began outside, he played
in the play area for a time
Page 300
at the beginning and then wandered around the outside before we
entered into the building. After
having been on the ground floor
we then went to the first floor and wandered around the area in
there. Again he showed no particular
interest in that area. We
5 then went up the stairs toward the Marriage
Guidance Centre entry
which is shown on page 9 of the plans and the stairwell is the left
of the number 307. Those stairs are
shown in photo 78 booklet B.
Those are the stairs and MG is the insignia used by Marriage
Guidance. We went into the corridor
and Eli showed no
10 particular
interest in any area. With reference to the
photographs, photograph 76 would show the area through the door
that we entered. The door we entered
would be to this side of the
rubber plant that can be seen on the right hand side of the
photograph, it hasn't shown the door but that photograph would be
15 taken
from the doorway. The corridor I have
mentioned that we
walked down and turned to our left is shown in photograph 75. This
is looking from the other end of the corridor the way that was
walked. These doors at the end of the
corridor lead on to the roof
area of the second floor. Photograph
74 shows the view looking
20 right
through that doorway. The corridor in
75 with reference to
the plan, it is a photo taken looking from the top of the corridor
back towards the reception of Marriage Guidance. Photo 74 is a
photograph taken from here looking towards the southern side -
witness indicates. Taken from the
doorways looking right as we
25 came out
the door. We went to that area with
Adrian. Immediately
he showed distinct interest in turning left and walking down what I
describe as a catwalk that runs along the side of the building
overlooking the alleyway between the Civic Child Care Centre and
the CSO hall. It would be this narrow
area along here - witness
30 indicates - we were actually able to walk along there
quite
comfortably. 304-307, there is a line coming
down, that is the
area he showed an interest in, a distinct interest in walking down.
On this particular occasion I stopped him from doing that and
indicated that we should go right and have a look at a toilet and
35 another
small room which used to be a dark room. This area is
shown in photograph 66 and is underneath a red water tank. The
doorway can be seen with the red surround.
We had a look in those
rooms, you can just see the door in photograph
66. After that we
Page 301
went down some disused stairs which are shown on the plan of the
Child Care Centre to the back of the building and he showed no
interest in this area either. These
stairs here which can be
accessed from the roof beyond the corner of the building as shown
5 in photograph 66 again. So looking at that photo we went towards
the greenery you can see, turned left and there is a doorway
leading to the disused stairwell. He
showed no interest in this
area.
ADJOURNED: 11.30
Page 302
RESUMED: 11.45
We immediately came back up the stairs and into the area on the
roof where we had just come from.
Again on getting to this area
Eli Laurel showed distinct interest
in wanting to walk along the
5 catwalk so I
allowed him to do this. Witness ref.
to aerial
photograph. Looking at this particular
photograph here, the Creche
is located here - witness indicates.
On the ground floor of this
particular building. On the top floor
of that building is located
the Marriage Guidance Centre so that would be uppermost area in
10 this
particular building. The stairs we
went down and came back up
are housed in this area here, the access being double door access
just here to the left of the boiler room.
The catwalk, the double
doors we came out at the end of the Marriage Guidance Centre are
here, the catwalk I ref. to runs along here, overlooking the
15 alleyway between CSO hall and the Cranmer Centre. Photograph 43
shows the wall, the outer wall of that catwalk that
we went along
so by that I mean that wall on the left of the photograph would be
on our right hand side as we went down.
We walked down that
catwalk looking at ph. 3 towards the buildings that can be seen,
20 down
from here towards Armagh Street. That particular area the
catwalk comes to a halt, a blind end, about 20 metres further on in
this area here between the two buildings, between the white roof
and grey roof. So once in this area Eli Laurel attempted to
climb onto this roof. I stopped him
from doing this however
25 considering
that it was dangerous and I simply held him up. That
roof in photo 44 would be the roof beyond the roof that is white.
The roof in photo 44 is this one here beyond the white roof towards
Armagh Street.
The catwalk is a concrete roof to the building
basically, it would be the edge of the wall.
You have a wall
30 coming
up on the outer side, the area you walk on is built
of
concrete and the building wall side.
The windows to the building
would be on our left as we walk along that alleyway, that catwalk.
The first roof, the white one, from the alleway it
is possible to
reach that roof by ladder. In fact I
personally was able to climb
35 up there
without a ladder but it is difficult. I got down into
that area of the white roof and Eli
Laurel indicated that he
wanted to go over and onto this rooftop, we didn't
do this however
at my suggestion. Once we had finished
in this area we wandered
Page 303
around the rest of the building on that particular level, he showed
no interest in any area until we got back into the area I described
as the reception for Marriage Guidance and again he indicated to me
that he wanted to or showed some recognition to the area outside
5 the window behind where the receptionist is
seated in Marriage
Guidance. The area I am ref. to in
relation to the photograph is
the area just inside the windows that look onto this roof shown in
photo 44. So virtually the same area
that we had been at on the
catwalk but beyond the area where we could go no further. Looking
10 at the
reception area photographs in photo 76 the windows that look
out onto the roof are these windows here - witness indicates. Ref.
to the aerial photograph, there are two manhole or trap covers in
the valley of the roof. I made
attempts to see if I could see them
from any other place in the building, they can't be seen from other
15 than
directly at them or an aerial photograph such as this, they
cannot be seen. To see those manhole
covers you have to be either
on this ridge here or on the manhole covers, they cannot be seen
otherwise. After we had been into the
reception area again, at
that stage we spent no more time in this particular area. My next
20 action was the following day. The following morning at 0900 hours,
9 a.m., as a result of my visit with Eli
Laurel Det. Legat and I
went back to the Cranmer Centre and we climbed out the windows
behind the reception area in Marriage Guidance, across the roofline
and into the area where the two manhole covers, trapdoors are.
25 Witness
indicates on aerial photograph. We
came across this flat
roof, up the gully at that particular point and down this
particular gully. The easiest route to
that particular area. On
the photograph there is a white line, that is a ladder that hooks
over the top point of a roof and is normally used to my knowledge
30 for roof
painters or similar who need to climb up and down the roof
with some measure of safety.
BENCH That
whitish looking roof you can see in the aerial photo,
does that lead directly onto the grey peaked roof as well? No it
doesn't, there is a drop. This white
roof here is higher than this
35 particular
roof and slightly higher than this particular roof so
the drop to the bottom of that roof to the white one is further
than the drop from the white one onto the roof of the creche,
slightly but it is further.
Page 304
COUNSEL This is all one piece looking at it, there is no gap
between the white roof on these two sides. Ref. to photograph 2,
that shows the area that we refer to here so the white roof is the
roof housing the stairwell which appears as a flat roof in photo 2
5 at the end of the alleyway. Photograph 5 shows the area at the end
of the alleyway and also shows that there is no gap between the
building on the right and also shows the small drop
off that flat
roof. The catwalk is shown also in
this photograph on the left
hand side as we look at it and the blind end can be seen at the
10 very top
left corner. The manholes in the roof
are over one
further ridge in respect of that photograph, in the valley here.
BENCH How big a drop is it from
the white roof that can be
seen in the aerial photograph and the brown roof you say you and
Det. Legat went across? On this particular side it is about
3'10
15 and on
the far side slightly over 4 and 1/2 foot.
COUNSEL Det. Legat and I went up into that valley
and located these
two covers which are simply held in place by their own weight and
lifted off easily. That portion of the
roof, the route that I
described that Det. Legat and I took being the
easiest route up
20 that
valley and down this particular valley - witness ref. to
photos 44 and 45 - this particular roof was new in comparison to
the rest of the Cranmer Centre having been rebuilt shortly a number
of years before, a couple of years before as a result of a fire.
The area or route that we took showed denting in the corrugated
25 iron
consistent with a substantial amount of traffic that we were
making that particular dent that was already there. The route we
took was up the meeting of the two roofs in photo 44 and down where
the two rooves join, the indications of traffic
were in this gully
here, it can be seen some of the denting particularly about half
30 way up
in the corrugated iron, but definitely it had had weight on
it to cause the denting that was there.
The valley photo 45,
coming down the other side again in this valley much more denting
than any other particular area on that roof.
That is coming down
the valley from left to right but not on the valley from right to
35 left,
definitely less denting in that area.
When I arrived there
with Det. Legat I opened the manhole covers and as
shown in photo
46 they simply lift back off and that gives entry into a ceiling
cavity shown in photo 47. That ceiling
cavity is above the
Page 305
Embroiders Guild, the passageway between the Embroiders Guild and
New Zealand Child Care Association and above the area referred to
as the kitchen associated to the Library.
Witness ref. to
Reference Book. The manhole I opened
in photograph 46 would be
5 above room 207 bordering on the corridor
between 207 and 208 so
approximately here. To the left of the
room 202. The other
manhole enters the other side above the stairs area and the
remainder of 207. Entry into that
ceiling cavity can be gained
through the manhole in the roof. There
is a manhole leading from
10 the
ceiling above the kitchen into the same area.
Photograph 47
booklet B shows the ceiling cavity area from which
entry is gained
through the manhole I opened. As does
photograph 48. 48 has
a
manhole entrance in the centre of the photo which goes down into
the kitchen, again shown in photo 49, 50.
51 is a closeup
15 photograph
of a hole cut in the wall. 52 is the
kitchen area on
the second floor, that is the kitchen area to which the key
was
found in the creche. Photograph
53 shows a view of the floor of
that kitchen. 54 shows
looking up the stairs towards the kitchen
door. Photograph 55 refers to the
kitchen door and the door to the
20 Library. From the kitchen you can gain access into
the library
without having to come out into the corridor. The kitchen has
access from the library and the corridor and you can also access
the kitchen by the library doors, by going through the library and
then into the kitchen. 56 is looking
as we come up the stairs
25 towards
the kitchen looking left along the next corridor which is a
corridor between the Embroiders Guild and the New Zealand Child
Care Association. 57 shows the interior of the room known as the
library and also shows its entry via the double doors and the door
leading into the kitchen area. That
would be the door on the right
30 of the
chairs leads into the kitchen. Photograph 58 looks across
the library to a door leading onto the area on the Montreal side of
the building so leading out of the library on the other side. The
second floor plan of the Cranmer Centre, page 8 of the Reference
Book, that particular door leads out into this corridor between
35 rooms
204 and 205. Photo 59 is a shot
looking down the library to
a window with the curtain drawn. Photo
60 is another shot of the
library with the curtains drawn back.
From my knowledge of the
Cranmer Centre it would be possible to circumnavigate or go through
Page 306
the Cranmer Centre without having to retrace your steps easily, no
problem. Photograph 61 depicts the
disused stairwell that I ref.
to earlier. Photograph 62 shows the
door leading from the roof
area into that disused stairwell. With
reference to the aerial
5 photograph the
stairwell, photo 62, the doorway comes out here on
the roof - witness indicates. So just
beyond the square white roof
here. Photograph 63 is a closer
photograph of that particular
door. Photograph 64 is from the roof
top looking back towards that
doorway. Photograph 65 is walking out
that doorway and turning
10 right. In relation
to the aerial photograph, photograph 65 would
show this area here, taken from this end, taken from the end
closest to the catwalk which Eli Laurel
showed interest in.
Photograph 66 is a similar photograph but taken from the other end
looking back towards the area of the disused stairwell.
15 BENCH The red tank
that can be seen in photo 66 can that be seen?
No that is actually obscured by this particular white roof here.
COUNSEL Photograph 66 is taken from here looking back this way.
Photograph 67 shows the catwalk on the opposite side of the
building running along here.
Photograph 68 shows that same catwalk
20 but
further on past the glass panelling that can be
seen in
photograph 67. I didn't measure the
height of the catwalk above
ground level but 30-35 feet would be my guess. At least 40 feet
thinking about it. Photograph 69 shows
the catwalk as it comes
round this corner here. The roof actually
obscures the catwalk on
25 this end
but it does continue on round the whole building. Photo
70 is the same area taken from here and shows the arrow pointing
back that way to the top, the disused stairwell. Photograph 71
shows this disused room which is underneath this water tank so its
in here. That room is in here, that
particular door is shown
30 there. Photograph 72 is the interior of that room.
Photograph 73
is the toilet used by Marriage Guidance and the door is the double
doors at the end of the Marriage Guidance corridor and then one
step into that toilet. Photograph 74
is taken from this area
looking towards here. So the area at
the end with the white
35 markings
was actually where somebody had cleaned with a duster
overlooks the alleway between the catwalk and the
CSO hall.
Photograph 75 is looking back up the corridor towards MG.
Photograph 76 is the reception area of MG.
Photograph 77 shows
Page 307
the supervisor's office of Marriage Guidance and the windows from
that look out onto that portion of this roof so they look at the
end of that roof. Photograph 78 is the
stairs leading up to
Marriage Guidance. Photograph 79 is
the second level looking back
5 toward room 212. Looking back towards ADARDS. Photograph 80 shows
the ground floor access to those stairs.
Photograph 1 is the blue
part of the creche, the front of the creche looking onto the play
area. Photograph 2 is a photograph
taken to the right of
photograph 1. Photograph 3 shows similar
area up the back of the
10 boilerhouse.
Photograph 4 shows the doors at the bottom of the
disused stairwell to the right of the boilerhouse. Photograph 5 is
taken from the catwalk looking down into that alleyway there.
Photograph 6 looks from the alleyway here back this way and shows
the access to the creche through the door here.
15 Photograph
7 are doors in here leading to the foyer of the CSO
hall
which houses two toilets and a storeroom.
Photograph 8 is taken again from the catwalk here looking across
this way and incorporates the corner of the CSO hall so looking
about across here to here.
20 Photograph
9 shows a view looking more straight across the
roofline
towards that chimney.
Photograph 10 is taken from here looking across this lower roof
line. Ref. to the Reference Book Page
7, the double doors we can
see there are in here.
25 Photograph
11 shows the back of the CSO Hall.
Photograph 12 shows that corner and this alleyway.
Photograph 13 is taken from the gates onto Montreal Street looking
in this way to the other doors on the opposite side of the CSO
Hall.
30 Photograph
14 looks out the gates onto Montreal Street.
Photograph 15 looks from Montreal Street into the gates.
Photograph 16 is taken from the other side of the street looking
back towards those gates.
Photograph 17 is also taken from the opposite side of the street
35 but
looking this way towards Armagh Street so the Armagh and
Montreal Corner.
Photograph 18 is taken from Latimer Square looking back this way to
the cnr of Armagh and
Montreal.
Page 308
Photograph 19 looks back towards the main entrance off Armagh
into
the Cranmer Centre.
Photograph 20 is the same area but taken further south. At the top
in the middle valley is a white object which is the roof painting
5 ladder. YOu can also see
in that photo the alleyway or catwalk on
that particular area there.
Photograph 21 is taken looking at the stair access just inside the
double doors off Armagh Street. In relation to the library and
kitchen area, following those stairs they lead directly to the
10 library
and kitchen area.
Photograph 22 looking at plan 7 as we come in towards the stairs
off Armagh Street off the entrance we have just
spoken about there
is a view right.
Photograph 23 is a view left.
15 Photograph
24 is a photograph of the foyer of the CSO Hall marked
foyer on the plan page 7.
Photograph 25 is a similar shot of that foyer.
Photograph 26 is the downstairs toilets at the Cranmer Centre off
that foyer.
20 Photograph
27 are the stairs on the Montreal side of the
building.
The doors shown are the doors leading onto Montreal Street. Page 7
of the reference book the stairs next to room 104.
Photograph 28 are those stairs a shot looking back
into the foyer.
Photograph 29 is the stairs further up.
25 Photograph
30 are those stairs further up again. Those stairs go
up to level 2, the doors at the top.
From there you can go to
directly opp. the kitchen.
Photograph 31 is looking down from the top of that particular
stairway.
30 Photograph
32 is the corridor on the first floor on the Montreal
side of the building.
Photograph 33 shows the corridor leading to the door or to the area
where the doorway leads into the back side of the library. That is
up on the second level shown on page 8 of the reference book. The
35 first
floor beginning nos 200.
Photograph 34 is the door to the boiler room, the second of the
boiler rooms which is just through the Montreal Street entrance
here.
Page 309
Photograph 35 shows a hatch for the delivery of coal to that
boiler, that hatch is off the street here off Montreal Street so
that would be just adjacent to the main doors leading off Montreal
St.
5 There is then a series of photographs
through to 39 which shows the
boiler room with pipes being part of the heating system through to
42.
Having undertaken that examination of the centre, to get up onto
the valley in the roof where the manholes are, it can be accessed
10 here, or
by coming right round the far side of the building. On
the catwalk adjacent to the CSO Hall.
On the catwalk on the Armagh
Street side of the building. And the
easiest way is by simply
going through the windows of Marriage Guidance onto this roof and
up over this way. From inside the
building it can be accessed from
15 the
manhole leading from the kitchen into that particular ceiling
cavity.
BENCH The
jury want to know about photograph 69 particularly and
would like you to explain how that relates to photographs 20 and
77? Photograph 69 shows this area
outside the manager's office of
20 Marriage
Guidance in that catwalk. Photograph
20 is looking at
that particular catwalk from across here between the two largest
trees against the building. Photograph
77 is that manager's office
looking onto that same catwalk as shown in photograph 69.
Where was the roof that you and Det. Legat took in relaton to
25 photograph
69 for example? Probably more appropriate photograph 77.
The route Det. Legat and I found easiest to use was
out this window
here beyond the doorway to the manager's office and then across,
this gave access to this roof here easily and then up here and down
here. When you say easily you are a
very tall man is it a drop of
30 4 or 5
ft? Once out this window here the drop is about 1 metre.
Photograph 69 shows the area just prior to that roof, that alleyway
just prior to that.
COUNSEL: Photograph 67 in the middle
of the photograph you can
see the outside roof dropping down and the shutters you can see are
35 in the
point of this or back of that building. The roof that can be
seen going down in photograph 77 is the roof in 44, that is
the
roof you can access through those windows.
BENCH Is that
roof in photograph 44 higher or lower than the
Page 310
catwalk that is shown in 69 or does that catwalk not actually lead
right onto the roof? That catwalk doesn't actually lead right on to
the roof, but I would imagine it was about the same height.
I couldn't be sure on that.
5
ADJOURNED: 1.00
Page 311
RESUMED: 2.15
When I was with Eli and at other
times when I had been there,
during the course of my scene examination I have literally spent
hours there at the Cranmer Centre and with Eli from 4 minutes
5 past 5 until quarter past 6 in the
evening. An hour and 10
minutes. From the times I have been
there its not a building with
a great deal of traffic for the size of it.
The rooms that are
rented by tenants are used I would describe intermittently and my
inquiries showed that some of them only used them for brief periods
10 throughout
the day and there was no set routine to their usage. As
to how often I would come across somebody else in the building
during the times I was doing my scene examinations there, quite
seldom. Booklet A 7004, photograph 1
is a view looking at Armagh
Street towards the front area of the creche so a view from over
15 here
onto this area here. Photograph 2 is
taken from the same
position but looking up a pathway that runs up here. Photograph 3
is a view of the play area taken from the Gloucester Street end
looking back towards the Armagh Street end
including the sandpit.
Photograph 4 is taken from relatively the same position but looking
20 back
onto the front area of the Cranmer Centre showing a small tin
shed in which they kept outside play gear.
Photograph 5 is a similar photo taken from the other end.
Photograph 6 is taken from the Armagh Street end
looking towards
that same tin shed.
25 Photograph
7 shows the front of the Wombles End, the doorways
of
the Armagh Street entrance, these doorways here.
Photograph 8 is a view of the supervisor's office
situated on the
southern side on the Gloucester Street corner, the chairs etc
outside are actually in the. children's area named the Pre School
30 Room.
Photograph 9 is a shot taken inside the supervisor's office. The
keys I found, in photo 9 can be seen a brown plastic mug on the
supervisor's desk behind a book marked 1B4.
Photograph 10 is also inside the supervisor's office but looking
35 back
toward a book shelf on this v/all here.
Photograph 11 is in the pre school end looking towards
this door.
The door marked on Ex.7003 "entrance" and "fire exit" in
the
photograph.
Page 312
Photograph 12 is a shot looking into this room the Store Room in
which was kept play things and items that the children could use
during their play.
Photograph 13 is another view looking onto this wall of the Store
5 Room.
Photograph 14 is taken from this position looking back
towards that
fire exit entrance and up towards this area, this passage area
here. The photograph is just shy of
that area here so the
photograph would finish about here.
10 Photograph 15 is taken from this area looking back towards
the
entrance and covering this wall here.
Photograph 16 would be taken from this vicinity looking
towards
this wall and the passage is shown over in the middle of that
photograph. Witness indicates.
15 Photograph 17 is a view looking from this area showing the
back
wall of the toilets. These two squares
here represent the
handbasin which can be seen on the area and this
lobby area here
shown in the centre of that photograph.
The entrance to the lobby
area there is a door. It is a wooden
door with a glass panel at
20 the top
of it. The glass is as I remember it
the glass with the
wire in it, I am not 100% sure about that.
Photograph 18 shows the children's toilet or one of the children's
toilet in this area here and the block on the floor
is for the
younger children to manage to reach the toilet.
25 Photograph
19 is taken from inside the toilet.
From the hinge end
of the photograph booklet looking towards the outer side. The dark
grey area is the inside of the door to the toilet closed.
Photograph 20 shows the second of the two children's toilets taken
from just outside the doorway. That is this toilet here.
30 Photograph
21 is a view of the adults toilet which is this one
here
in the corner. The two children's
toilets and then at the end but
facing towards them is the adults toilet.
Photograph 22 is looking from here into the staff room and the door
on the left of the photo as we look at it is this doorway here.
35 The door
which is the entrance from the Lobby Area of the toilets
to the staffroom is again a wooden door with glass. The door from
this area into the staffroom is solid wood and can be seen in
photograph 23 looking back towards the toilet, so photo 23 is taken
Page 313
from here looking back this way.
Photograph 24 is taken from here looking towards this
wall and
passageway, so from here looking up the passageway.
Photograph 25 is also taken from a similar area and shows the first
5 door into the staff room and the second door
leading into this
shared room. Sorry the first door
leads into the kitchen and the
second door into the shared room. The
staff room is through the
windows that can be seen above the children's coats hanging on the
wall.
10 Photograph
26 is a photograph looking into the kitchen also
referred to as the eating room on some occasions.
Photograph 27 is of the cooking area in the kitchen showing the
bench looking out onto the southern side.
Photograph 28 is also in this room looking back towards this corner
15 where the
TV set is situated.
Photograph 29 is taken from here looking back toward the sleeping
room, the sleeping room being that room there.
Photograph 30 is taken from this doorway looking across the face of
the sleeping room.
20 Photograph
31 is taken from about this point looking towards this
area, the quiet and shared room.
Photograph 32 is another view of the sleeping room looking towards
this area.
Photograph 33 is also the quiet and shared room looking towards the
25 small end, the nursery or Wombles End.
Photograph 34 is looking into the area marked change room and shows
a shower base here.
Photograph 35 also looks into the change room showing a washing
machine in this area and the table on this wall here.
30 Photograph
36 is taken from inside the change room looking back
towards that wall.
Photograph 37 is taken from this area here in the change room
looking along past the showers in the children's toilet.
Photograph 38 shows the basin in the same area.
35 Photograph
39 is a view looking into the toilet in this area.
As is photograph 40.
Photograph 41 is taken from in this vicinity looking across towards
the entrance here in the nursery Wombles End.
Page 314
Photograph 42 is taken from this area looking back towards the
store room, the door with the glass beneath the
butterfly on the
wall is the storeroom.
Photograph 43 is taken from a similar position looking towards the
5 Armagh St
wall. The window in that particular
photo looks into
Armagh Street.
Photograph 44 is taken from the Armagh Street side
looking back
towards this area. The store room is
visible in that photograph as
well.
10 Photograph
45 is a view looking into this room and shows windows on
the Armagh Street wall again.
Photograph 46 is a view looking into this corner adjacent to the
store room.
Photograph 47 is looking into the bench facilities in this corner
15 of the Wombles room.
Photograph 48 looks again across to this area beneath the windows.
Photograph 49 shows the car parks used by the Civic Child Care
Centre and the gate leading into this area here.
20 ADJOURNED: 2.40
Page 315
RESUMED: 4.05
Going back to the play room area at the Big End of the Creche, the
door into the toilets, that is the door with the bit of glass in it
about chest height. If everyone was
playing outside on a summer's
5 day and someone was in there, there is a
limited view and the view
is relevant to the position of the viewer but to about 30 degrees
to the right as we look it and the view disappears, diminishes.
BENCH The
glass in that door at the moment is that the same glass
as was there when you first saw it? It is, that would be my mistake
10 in my
earlier evidence.
COUNSEL The ability to see what was going on there would depend how
close someone was standing to the door.
The further back one would
be standing the less view they would have to the outer room. The
closer somebody is standing to the door of the toilet the less view
15 somebody would
have from the outer room to them. From
the inside
of the toilet I think it would be negligible the difference that
the glass makes seeing someone coming to the toilets.
HARRISON XXD
You have ref. to some keys that you found on the desk of the
20 supervisor's
office? Yes 11 keys in 2 diff. cups.
You ref. to one
key as having been altered to fit a triple lock is that correct?
yes 3 lever rather than 2 lever. That was the key that you used to
check all the doors in the Cranmer Centre? Yes I tried that
particular key in every door, every lock that it would fit into.
25 It
operated two locks, one being the kitchen adjacent to the
library and the other lock that it operated was room 109 but that
was above the particular lock that that key operated. Did you try
that key anywhere else? Everywhere that I could. Anywhere outside
the Cranmer Centre? No. You told us
you had been informed that key
30 operates on locks in older buildings? Not at all. My inquiry with
other people indicated that this particular key would be a key more
commonly used in a building such as the Arts Centre. Do you know
where the old creche used to be? Yes. Wasn't that in the Arts
Centre Dux de Lux building? Yes. You ref. to denting in the roof
35 in
photos 44 and 45? Yes. In photograph
45 did you find signs of
denting when looking at photo 45 in the gully leading away to the
right? I am just not,
I don't have the photograph booklet at
present. Witness ref. to 7005, booklet
B. Looking at the photo
Page 316
the one that leads off to the right? Less than the others, very
little. But there was signs of denting there? Not
that I can recall
but, no I can't remember that. The
denting that I noted partic.
was the denting on the two areas I described
previously. Had there
5 been denting in the other area I would have
noted that. Did you
make any inquiries of the caretaker of the Cranmer Centre about the
roof? Yes. Did he advise you people went up there from time to time
to clear the guttering of leaves? Seldom were his words and
generally not that particular portion of the roof. Ref. to photo
10 20, the
ladder that you ref. to leads down to some guttering does
it not? Yes that ladder leads down on that side of the building
that I didn't climb down. There are a large no. of trees all
around the Cranmer Centre aren't there? Yes none that partic.
overhang that portion of the bldg as I see it but as I said I
15 didn't
climb down to that area. If someone
was to attempt to clear
that guttering along the front of the Cranmer Centre how would best
access be gained? I think that, I couldn't say without having a
look up there. Ref. to photograph 77,
through the doorway shown in
photo 17 does that lead into the reception area for Marriage
20 Guidance
Council? Yes that is right. Did you make inquiries of MG
how long they had been there for? Yes I understand somebody from
there will give evidence. Are you aware MG has been in that
building since 1988? I couldn't tell you specific dates but yes I
am aware they have been there for a no. of years. Are you also
25 aware
that their reception area has always been in the same place?
No I am not aware of that. Didn't you
make inquiries about that?
No I didn't make inquiries about whether their reception
had been
situated in another area. Were
you also aware MG is open from 9-5
and there is usually someone in the reception area throughout the
30 day? I
understand it sometimes has people in beyond those hours as
well but specifically how often someone is in the reception area I
am not aware of that. I wld say generally while I
was there there
would have been someone in the reception area. Ref. now to
photographs of the actual Civic Creche itself 7004 booklet A2, you
35 have
taken a series of photographs 14, 15,
16, 11, 8, of
the
interior of the Big End? Yes. But you
have seemed to miss taking a
photo that actually shows the door to the toilets? No I believe
that photograph is in there but the door is open. Are you ref. to
Page 317
photo 17? That is correct. Why is there not a photograph
in the
booklet that shows the entire wall of where the toilets are
situated including the door? That
would be the way the photographs
were taken, I don't think there would be any particular reason for
5 it.
In assessing the best way to show a scene it is my duty to
direct that particular photographs are taken and it simply my
opinion as to how they should be. You
would have had some
knowledge of the allegns of the Civic Creche
inquiry prior to the
scene investign? Yes. YOu
would know there were allegns of
10 incidents
in the toilet area? Certainly. You wld know
throughout
most of the year the usual practice was for the door to the
toilets to remain open, do you not think it would have been
important to have the door to the toilets open and photographs
taken showing how much you can see of the inside of the toilets
15 from the
general play area of the creche or Big End?
The door is
open in photograph 17.
In your other photographs 16, 14,
15 you
can see the general area of the creche can't you of the Big End?
Certainly, there wld be a no. of inadequacies about
the photographs
but nothing would be deliberate in that, it is very diff. to depict
20 a scene
such as that partic. bldg
in a totality in photos. Do any
photos show the sink beside the door to the toilets? You mean
handbasins on the back wall. No the sink directly to the left of
the door if you look at ph. 17 it would be out to the
side? Not
from that view no. The sink I am ref.
to is in the main area of
25 the Big
End? Yes. You recall it? Yes. Do you mean the sink
outside the door to the toilets from the Big End. Yes, the kitchen
sink section I am ref. to is here? Yes.
There is no photograph of
this area at all is there from this side of the creche? The
photographs that I indicated should be taken show the parts I felt
30 were
relevant to the inquiry and I found that there was no
importance placed upon that partic. bench, however it is shown in
the plans. If someone was standing
here and the door to the toilet
was open they would have a full view of this lobby area? Certainly.
If they were standing around here they would still be able to see
35 people
coining in and out of these two doors? Its not easy
but a
concerted effort would certainly give you a view. Did you at any
time try and establish the range of view from the pre school room
looking into the toilets when the door was open? Yes. Why were no
Page 318
photographs taken of those particular angles? That would be an
oversight. There may well be photographs in a no. of other proofs
that were taken but that would certainly need to be taken into
account. Did you carry out a site
inspection of the cavity which
5 was shown in
photograph 45, underneath the trapdoor Ex.7005 book B?
From the roof yes. Walking around in
that cavity area would you
agree with me that you had to be extremely careful where you put
your foot? Yes. Otherwise you would go through the roof? Yes. And
in fact I believe one detective did go through the roof? I don't
10 know who
it was but somebody put a foot through the roof adjacent
to the manhole in the kitchen. Did you carry out, forensic exam, of
that cavity area? Yes. To your
knowledge no evidence as a result
of that examination is to be presented in Court? Not to my
knowledge at this stage no. When were
the photos of the creche,
15 the
child care centre itself taken? I would have to
refer to my
notebook. I have no idea at what stage
it was and I have 4
notebooks. Was it before or after the
Creche was closed? They
were taken after the Creche was closed.
Ref. to the aerial
photograph, have you been through the entire Cranmer Centre? As
20 well as
one can, its difficult. Ref. to the section that is along
the one way system there? Yes. Have you been into that very end
section there? Yes. Have you been into the very end rooms along
there, facing over the CSO building? Yes.
Ref. to the photos of
the creche again, 7004 book A, clearly all these photos were taken
25 at an
early stage prior to the creche being cleaned out? Yes that
is correct. In photo 17 there is some
toilet paper shown down by
the door? Yes the packet of tissue type toilet paper. Was that
already on site when you arrived? Yes.
LANGE RXD
30 My
friend asked you in ref. to the floor plan of the Creche how you
assessed the view from this side into the toilets from outside the
storeroom, what was your assessment of the view from there? Very
very difficult to see unless you make a concerted effort. Was that
with the door open or closed? With the door open. Closing the door
35 improve
your view? You can see next to nothing.
The glass there
seemed to have a reflective type quality to it, is that effective
at diff. angles? Its something I have noticed just
recently. There
does seem a lot more light in the bldg since its
cleared out, there
Page 319
is no question of that. There were a
no. of roof hangings, things
hanging from the roof that I would imagine would cause certain
reflection in the glass. There is clearly more light
to me now. So
how did your ability to see into that room for example from our
5 view today diff. from the time when the
creche was full of items?
Much easier today. There was nothing between where we stood in the
front of the toilet door. I would
describe the interior of that
end as being cluttered, most certainly cluttered. When you say
that end you are referring to what end? I am referring to the pre
10 school
end. The photographs, is that shown in
photos 15 and 16,
14? Yes.
Extremely full and some of the ceiling hangings can be
seen in photo 16.
Photo 14 shows a lot of hangings. You were ref.
to a photograph of the Cranmer Centre and the cavity above the roof
where somebody had gone through it? Yes.
Is that person an adult
15 or
child? An adult. Room 109 when you
tried this key and it
worked in there were you able to unlock the door completely at that
stage? No it had a deadlock above it.
The other keys you found,
firstly the two keys Ex.10191 including 10A that was located in the
brown cup in the supervisor's office you pointed out in a photo?
20 Yes. 10190 were located where? In a green cup in
the supervisor's
office, I don't see it in that photograph but it was on the same
desk. Photograph 9 shows the brown cup. Is that where the cup was
when you went into the room? Yes. The other key found in that cup
did you try that anywhere? That key operates the door into the
25 corridor
of the shared or quiet room. Again
with reference to the
floor plan of the creche, is that the door under the word "room"?
Yes correct. Does that lead directly
into the Cranmer Centre?
Thats right. The other keys you located do they appear
to have
uses around the creche? Yes they did.
Up on the roof you were
30 asked if
you noticed any denting on the other valley up towards
Montreal St, I thought you said in cross-exam, if you had noticed
denting you would have noted it? Certainly, much more significant
in the areas we noted it, clearly more than any other area. Did
you put in your notebook or record any denting on that other part
35 of the
roof? No. Access to clean out
guttering on the Armagh St
site, looking at photo 1 booklet A, - witness ref. to aerial photo
- you can see the valleys there, does that also show all the trees
around that area? Yes. If you wanted
to get down into the valleys
Page 320
on the Armagh St side you just need to go along the
hip of that
roof and down into the valleys where that ladder is? Yes that is
what I would imagine but I didn't do it.
Other than being on the
roof in the valley where the manholes are, how else can a person
5 know about them being there? You can't see them, you cannot see
them from any other position.
BENCH
Looking at booklet A, photo 16, what does that really
show? That
is taken from an area near the southern side of the large end
10 looking
across to the corridor outside the kitchen and staff room.
Witness ref. to plan. Where would it be taken from? In this
vicinity here. Looking towards? This area.
So the toilet door
would be to the left of that photograph as you look at it? Yes. If
the toilet door was shut would you see head and shoulders of an
15 adult standing
up in the foyer area of the toilets? Only if you
were relatively close and in the right area to be able to see into
that area. Are you aware from your own
knowledge whether it was
customary for doors through to the Womble End to be
shut off or
anything of that nature? I can't give that evidence.
20 Booklet
B, photo 18, I think you said that was taken from Latimer
Square, you presumably meant Cranmer Square? Cranmer Square sorry.
Looking at photograph 44 and 45, the colour of the sloping roof
seems to be different are we looking at the same roof? Photograph
distortion, it is all the same roof.
When you told us about
25 looking
in the cavity underneath the manholes as shown in
photograph 46, which side were you referring to? The one shown in
photograph 46 that is open. That would
be the manhole that gives
you access to the area that gives you access to the manhole to the
kitchen. Did you look in the other
area under the other manhole as
30 well?
Yes. Looking at photograph 47, where is that in
relation to
the manholes? That would be a small black light spotlight can be
seen in the left hand side of the photo which is just through the
manhole leading from the kitchen so we are looking from the Armagh
St side back toward the manhole leading to the kitchen. That
35 particular
light was positioned just through the manhole. If you
go in the manhole on photograph 46 how far is it from there down to
where you can stand? Approximately 3
feet. In photograph 47 the
beam or whatever it is looks to be burnt there? That is correct as
Page 321
a result of the fire in that particular area and the structure was
rebuilt but those particular beams were charred rather than
destroyed and obviously not replaced.
When was that fire? As I
understand 1988 but I wouldn't be sure.
Photograph 48 the hole
5 that can be seen partly covered in that
photograph and uncovered in
photograph 50, where does that lead between? That
leads to a
smaller ceiling cavity above the library so it runs along the side
of the library ceiling. Although there
appears to be no ceiling in
the library there is a cavity between that fire rated wall and the
10 boards
that are on the inside ceiling of the library. Has that got
a floor? Yes you can move around in there quite freely. In
photograph 48 there is something that can be seen towards the top
left of the photograph, can you tell us what that is? There is some
sort of crudely built frame that we couldn't account for. Just a
15 wooden
frame of some type? Yes a wooden frame of some type.
The disused stairwell that you ref. us to and showed us this
afternoon, what access if any was there to that? That top door that
we went through is normally unlocked as a fire escape. I
understand that the law says that that door is maintained unlocked.
20 Can you
get onto that stairwell from other levels? Yes but other
levels have the doors locked, particularly first
floor the door is
locked. Were there or did you find any
keys which would give
access from the first floor to that stairwell? No.
In relation to the Marriage Guidance Council's reception area, the
25 window
that goes from that area across the catwalk to the roof,
being the route that I understand you and Det.
Legat took, what
sort of a window is that and how does it operate? The window that
we used is hinged at the top with just a bar latch leading out.
There was one further reason we used that as an access rather than
30 the
outer catwalk the rooms from Marriage Guidance were being used
at times and it was inappropriate that we walked past office
windows.
LANGE
Just going back to the old stairwell at the end which goes from the
35 back of
the creche up to the corridor at Marriage Guidance, the top
door is kept unlocked to that? Yes.
That is the second level?
Second floor. First floor is there a door to that? Yes. Locked or
unlocked? Lock. The ground floor is
locked or unlocked? Locked
Page 322
from the outside, I understand when we made initial inquiries that
that could possibly be opened from the inside but I wouldn't be
sure about that. As regards the cavity in the ceiling, if we go
back to photograph 46 you were standing in the cavity with yr body
5 out the door how much of your body would be
out? From the waist up.
Access from the hole in the ceiling down to the floor of the
kitchen area how would that be gained? We used a ladder. Where
did you obtain the ladder from? From the Civic Creche in the end,
initially from the police stn. Whereabouts was that
ladder in the
10 creche? Its shown in the photographs stored in the storeroom.
Photo 13. The aluminium
ladder lying on its side? Yes.
HARRISON
Ref. to photograph 50 booklet B, the hole that is shown there to
your knowledge that was designed so electricians could wire the
15 building?
Yes the investigation showed that. Is it also true once
you get in there the side of the roof actually slopes down? Yes as
does the shape of the ceiling when you look at it from inside. When
you say you could move quite easily around there its still a
cramped space? Yes you can move around in there quite freely but it
20 has its obvious difficulties. In fact in there the gap that would
be available for you to place your foot down at the bottom would
only be about the width of a foot itself? Yes.
25 ADJOURNED: 4.55
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