The Christchurch Civic Creche case


1993 Documents


Trial Transcripts

 




Pages 572-611

Trial Testimony
May 31 1993

Testimony of Keith LePage


The following is a direct copy of the trial transcripts, including pages and line numbers.

Names of complainants and other identifying information have been deleted or changed
to conform with Court suppression orders.  (using guidelines adopted by Lynley Hood in
her book "A City Possessed" page 12).  These changes have been highlighted.

The transcript includes obvious abbreviations.
Less obvious abbreviations or spelling mistakes have been underlined


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                        Page 572

RESUMED:  MONDAY 31ST MAY 1993 AT 10.15 A.M.
KEITH ERNEST LE PAGE (SWORN)
I currently reside in Adelaide S.A. And I am a Psychiatrist.  My
qualfcns are I have a Bach. of Med. and surgery Univ. of Adelaide

5   1952.  I have a dip. in Psychol. Medc. at the R.C.P.S. London.  I
have a diploma in child health from the Royal Faculty of Physicians
and Surgeons of Glasgow.  I am also a foundation member of the
Aust. and NZ. College of Psychiatrists in 1963.  I also have a
diploma in Psychotherapy from the Univ. of Aberdeen and I am also a

10  member of the Aust. Society for Hypnosis.  I am also a F.A.R.C.
Psychiatrists.  In terms of my experience I am also registered in
NZ. under the Medical Council.  As to my experience in 1956 to 1958
I worked at the Hill End Child Guidance Clinic at St Albans Herts.
I attended training sessions there as part of the training

15  programme.  Also as part of my training that involved visits to
other handicapped children units around Herts, and London.  Over
1959 and 1960 I worked with children in Bristol, Winchester and
Southampton, 1958 1959 I was in Bristol attached to a handicapped
childrens hospital and also attending the Bristol Childrens

20  Hospital and the Bristol Child Guidance clinic, it was a
combination of 3 entities and 1959 to 1960 I was appted a child
psychiatrist in Hampshire and ChCh was part of my parish in
Hampshire.  This culminated in my obtaining my dip. in child health
and I attended the childrens hospital in my last year in Hampshire.

25  During those years the nature of my work with children was dealing
with child and family problems as one does in a child guidance
clinic, emotional problems essentially but there is quite a lot of
overlap with various types of handicaps because most handicapped
children and partic. their parents do have adjustment problems.

30  And that did also involve contact with most of the organisations
which dealt with the whole range of handicapped children.  From
1960 to 1967 I was the snr child psychiatrist with Wakefield St
Clinic in Adelaide, I was the only one initially, I started the
clinic and two more trainees were appointed subsequently and during

35  that time I started what I think was the first day school for
emotionally disturbed children in Australia.  Referring to the day
school for emotionally disturbed children, it started with non
school attenders because in those days in 1960 1961 the non school






                        Page 573

attenders were pursued by the attendance branch of the Education
Dept and the parents could be prosecuted because their children
were not attending school and knowing that these children had
emotional problems which undermined their confidence I felt there

5   was a better way of dealing with those problems rather than
prosecution so that was the primary motivating factor for starting
this clinic and we ultimately had 3 separate classes and during the
time I was associated with that school there were roughly 117
 children passed through the school, many of those returning to

10  their normal classes after they had appropriate treatment.  From
1967 to 1968 I attended the Univ. of Aberdeen where I completed a
post grad. course in psychotherapy.  Since 1968 to the present time
I have been in private practice in general psychiatry in Adelaide.
Much of my work would cover child and family psychiatry, - approx.

15  2/3rds or a bit more has been adult work, most adult problems have
their roots in childhood.  The rest would vary in proportion
between children and families, mainly because I was quite well
known as being the first full time child psychiatrist in S.A. and
people contd to refer children to me.  Since 1985 I have been

20  involved in child sex abuse cases.  Since that time I have been
involved in 104 child abuse cases approx.   Ref. to memory
structure and development, as to how memory is structured and
develops from a young child to an adult, perhaps if I can use the
analogy of a submarine which is quite a concrete example. There are

25  3 components to memory, if one regards the periscope as being the
perceptual system with the submarine on the surface with just the
periscope and tower visible but the main body of the submarine
underneath.  When I talk about the periscope, in relating it to
human terms its the perceptual mechanism where all perceptual

30  stimuli the periscope can pick up except taste or touch that seeing
in partic. with the periscope sound touch taste, the senses of a
human being, what the eyes and other sensory mechanisms pick up are
picked up by the perceptual system, that passes through the conning
tower which is quite small, has a limited capacity and then down

35  into the main body of the submarine which is below the surface in
the unconscious if you like, this has unlimited capacity.  In terms
of the conning tower in relation to short term or long term memory,
the conning tower is the short term memory where most perceptual






                        Page 574

experiences pass in and out.  When an individual has a perceptual
experience it normally passes into the short term memory where its
processed and what is deemed desirable to register then passes down
into the long term memory where it is stored.  The short term

5   memory like the stenographer has a limited capacity and can get
jammed or overflowed.   The significance of the short term memory
being jammed or overflowed, providing the intake is at a speed
which the short term memory can take in the individual will process
what seems to be signif. for it and pass that on to long term

10  memory where it will be stored depending on the age and development
of the child, initially its just events.  As to what makes the
short term memory register things as significant, it is what is
significant for the individual.  What is meaning ful to that
individual, the additional material that is not meaningful drifts

15  away or decays.  And diff. people of course register diff. things
because some things are more meaningful to them than they are to
other people.  As to how the size or capability of the conning
tower relates to the age of a person, with young children of course
they can only understand events and not the meaning that goes  with

20  those events.  And therefore they tend to encode in their long term
memory just single or perhaps two or three items of an event that
just happened.  As people get older they not only record the event
but the meaning and significance of that event as well which goes
into what is called the semantic or meaning memory.  If I explain

25  that in the full blown adult there are really 3 compartments in the
long term memory, the event or episodic memory which just records
an actual happening. The semantic memory which records the meaning
and the procedural knowledge or skills such as operating that
machine which is a skill called procedure knowledge.  As to the

30  points which indicate or have effect on forgetting in the memory,
there -  Before we get onto that the short term memory is also
called the working memory in that it can process material coming in
from the outside through the periscope or material that is
generated in the long term memory that comes back into conscious

35  awareness or the working memory. It has really igot 2 names, short
term memory which processes and filters informn coming in from the
inside and it can also rework informn it recycles from the long
term memory.  As to any processes that react on the memory to cause






                        Page 575

forgetting, there are two types of forgetting, one is called
natural forgetting and the other pathological forgetting. The
natural forgetting consists of decay or displacement, we just
mentioned that briefly when talking about overflow in the short

5   term memory, because important things displace things that are not
important or lesser importance. The next one is the most widely
known the interference theory which says basically that any
recording of an event and its meaning can be interfered with by
either subsequent learning or past learning, the original event may

10  take on a completely different meaning depending on the nature of
past learning and future learning.  And there is more likely to be
confusion if there are many quite similar events as opposed to
quite distinct and different events.  That one incidentally applies
universally to people of all ages until one starts dementing of

15  course.  I have heard the term of childhood amnesia, childhood
amnesia is a universal phenomena which implies that children in the
pre school period have great diff. recalling informn unaided during
that period.  It blankets completely the pre verbal period and it
lessens in extent once a child acquires language and normally

20  passes by the time children start school and this incidentally is
why children start school at 5 to 6 plus so they can remember what
they have been told.  During that period a child is unable to
reconstruct in conscious awareness spontaneously information
contained in that childhood amnesic period.  When I am ref. to the

25  inability to recall childhood memories, as to why children cannot
recall, thre are 3 reasons. The first is the immaturity of what is
called their encoding mechanisms.  By encoding mechanisms,
registering in the long term memory and the cataloguing process. If
you use a library as an analogy. The first thing is they have only

30  got the capacity to record simple events.  But as they get older of
course they can recall more events, they begin to acquire language
and they begin to understand the meanings of progressively more
things.  The next two important things are that when children are
asked to remember their search and retrieval mechanisms in the long

35  term memory are too immature to resurrect these memories and bring
them back into the working memory in a meaningful way.  And that is
why a child cannot spontaneously recall events in general in the
long term from long term memory. They can recal events in the short






                        Page 576

term, say days weeks or perhaps a few months, they can give you
description of events that have happened.  So when I am referring
to days weeks or months, the sort of informn children can remember
in terms of the day weeks or months, particularly experiences that

5   have int. them like going to the zoo or something that has
registered as being pleasant, meaningful, significant, it can also
be an unpleasant experience. If I can come back to long term
memory, I forgot to mention in addition to information passing
through the short term memory into long term memory there is also a

10  phenom. called automatic coding which can bypass the processing
through the short term memory and be recorded directly into long
term memory.  An example of this would be if somebody heard a rifle
shot before, they know what it is, they hear another one, they know
precisely what it is, they do not have to process the meaning of

15  that experience in their short term memory and the automatic
encoding occurs in milliseconds whereas the short term memory
processing takes a longer period of time.  As to source amnesia, Dr
Zelas has ref. to a phen. called magical thinking and she has
indicated that where a child imagines something has happened and

20  she refers specif, to a stress or threat situation then that child
may actually say that thing did occur.  That is something that can
be referred only to a stress or threat sitn or any childhood
experience? It can come up in any child or adult experience, not so
much the magical thinking but the source amnesia.  Source amnesia,

25  the precise definition is an inability to recall where a piece of
information came from,  whether it actually happened, whether they
imagined it happened or whether they were told it happened.  Taking
the human experience from milk years to adult level, the
susceptibility of source amnesia I would say in general adults are

30  less suscept. to it but many adults I hear them frequently say I
can't remember whether I did something, whether I dreamt about it
or whether somebody told me about it, there is some sort of image
in their mind and they can't remember how that image first got
there but in general it occurs very much more so with young

35  children who are dependent on others for their information.  Ref.
under natural forgetting to a series of processes, decay,
displacement, interference, infantile and source amnesia, those
processes can occur concurrently at the same time.  And apart from






                        Page 577

the childhood amnesia infantile amnesia all the others continue
throughout life.  I have mentioned pathological forgetting.
Pathological forgetting occurs when an indiv. is subjected to what
is called threat stress, there are 2 types of stress. Challenge

5   stress which enhances a person's performance, threat stress causes
illness, there are only the two types. With pathological forgetting
there are two major causes of expressions of pathological
forgetting, one is repression where unpleasant material is
unconsciously removed from conscious awareness and left until

10  resurrected at a later date.  The other is called assn where a
circumscribed piece of informn is locked away for example in a
separate room. A more classic example of that is the multiple
personality where the personality can split up into different
parts, different parts represent diff. aspects of threat stress.

15  There is a third one called suppression which is a conscious
removal from conscious awareness or a conscious attempt to remove
 from conscious awareness material that is perceived by that
 individual to be unpleasant to them.  Discussing this with Dr
Zelas last week she ref. to denial by a person as being yet another

20  group if you like under repression and dissn, you ref. to
repression, dissociation and suppression, she indic, there is a
fourth one denial and many more? That is a conscious non
recognition of something that is consciously known to an
individual.  So you would place such a thing as denial under

25  suppression? Yes that is more akin to, pathological forgetting and
normal forgetting are unconscious processes, those 2 pathol. ones I
mentioned repression and dissn are unconscious and happen without
the individual being consciously aware that they are occurring.
Suppression is a consciously motivated removal or attempt to remove

30  something from conscious awareness.  As to what state dependent
learning is, if I can give an example, if a person is involved in a
frightening motor vehicle accident where perhaps they feared they
would be maimed or killed, the mind then encapsulates that event
with the feelings associated with the threat to the body or to the

35  individuals life and that is encoded in the mind as an entity and
its called state dependent learning because what is encoded in the
mind is dependent on the psycho physiological state of the
individual at the time that that is occurring.  Psycho






                        Page 578

physiological state,.if a person is involved in a car crash, for
example if they can see a crash is avoidable there is an immed.
feeling of apprehension, this is threat stress.  It only applies
with threat stress where the individual becomes apprehensive,

5   frightened, that upsets the neuro physiological system, can cause
diff. with breathing and all sorts of sematic manifestations and
all of those reactions in the mind, in the body associated with
whatever traumas might occur with the result of the accident
increase. Even if the person is rendered unconscious afterwards

10  they are encoded as an entity in the mind and it is important and
I have this every week with road accident victims, I go back to the
moment of the impact to find out what their initiall reactions were
because there is always leakage and a continuation of symptoms from
that time even though they may have forgotten what their initial

15  feelings were at the time the accident occurred.  When I take
someone back to such an incident, when they bring out that incident
back into their conscious memory you find what they actually
experienced at the time and often a whole lot more goes through
their mind.  Its very common when people fear that they are going

20  to be killed that other thoughts come into their mind, what about
the family what about the children, whats going to happen to them.
What about the emotions at the time the event occurs? They release
the emotions at the time that they release the memories of what
they are in fact experiencing and they can even recall the

25  movements that their body went through and other actions and other
feelings but you tend to get a fairly complete understanding
providing they are good subjects and able to do this but the total
experience, the state bound experience they had at the time of the
traumatic event.   As to remembering in mature children and

30  adults, basically children can remember what they can understand.
But by and large from the childhood amnesic period children cannot
spontaneously recall information.  The information has to be cued
in the form of questions.  And the information that is cued is very
much a reflection of the nature of the cue and the circumstances

35  under which this information is cued.  One other difference if I
may say when children do spontaneously recall things spontaneous
recollctions tend to be reasonably accurate.  Cued recollecns might
produce more informn but the recollecns increase markedly.  There






                        Page 579

is a diff. between remembering and recall, remembering implies that
one has to search and retrieve information from long term memory
and bring it back into the working memory.  Recall and recognition
implies that one needs to recognise what has been recalled as being

5   accurate in terms of the remembering process.  As to the 3
different kinds of remembering, spontaneous, cued and recognition.
The difference between spontaneous recall and cued recall,
spontaneous recall means the child is able to recall informn
without any outside help, it does it spontaneously on its own

10  volition.  Cued recall means the child can only do it with external
help.  Recognition means there has to be a fit between what the
child has recalled and what actually happened.
In terms of children at the general development level of children
such as these complainants and also during the pre school period,

15  children of this age can remember an infra structure of general
circumstances.        Pre school, they can remember events, as I
said earlier with the acquisition of language their capacity to
recall and to understand increases in degrees and they can recall
and describe simple things, as I said like birthday parties, visits

20  to the zoo, who might have been there, what sort of present they
got and those sort of things.  Their capacity to provide meanings
or give meaningful explanation is very limited.  Its not absent
completely but it is restricted.  Taking for an example a child who
has a birthday at the age of 4, as to what I would expect that

25  child to remember of the birthday when it was 6, they might be
struggling 2 years after the event to remember the fourth birthday
unless they had or were given a very important present which
perhaps they still possessed, used and enjoy and that event might
stick out in their mind but in general they wouldn't be able to

30  remember who was at that party or thye might just remember one or
two people but they would find it very difficult to add more detail
than that.  Where a child perhaps suffered a serious accident, take
for example a car accident at the age of 4, as to what I would
expect that child to be ab le to remember at the age of 6, that

35  would depend on an awful lot of different circumstances.  For
example if a child was hospitalised because of the accident they
would be more likely to remember first the fact they were in
hospital and sep. from their parents.  If as a result of that






                        Page 580

accident the child went through pathological forgetting of the
event, so the stress of the accident caused the memory to be
repressed or disassociated from it, when that memory was brought
back to the child at 6 years old, one of the things we do in

5   accident cases to determine whether people have been rendered
unconscious physically or perhaps dissociated is to ask them what
they remember about the actuall accident. When people are knocked
unconscious they normally don't remember anything except that under
hypnosis they can recall during the retrograde amnesic period, the

10  period immed. prior to the loss of consciousness what was happening
during that period. If they dissociate that there was no evidence
of concussion one can explore again under hypnosis the events that
are happening. Getting back to the children one would want to know
whether they were knocked unconscious or whether they do have any

15  recollecn of the accident because mostly children not in the front
seat if they are young.  If a child has suffered pathological
forgetting as a result of that accident, when that memory is
brought out to the child 2 years later, I would expect to find the
distress if dissociated or repressed one would expect the type of

20  distress they experienced immed. at the moment of impact and
immediately after.  Ref. to suggestibility, suggestibility is a
capacity to be influenced by other people and there are in fact 2
types of suggestibility, one is described as primary suggestibility
which is a stable characteristic and can be measured by appropriate

25  tests. The second is secondary suggestibility which is no longer a
stable characteristic but a heightened state of suggestibility
depending on the mental state the individual is in at any
particular time and they are more receptive to influences around
them because of this heightened state.  Children of the age of

30  these children and at their general development level, the limit of
their suggestibility as opposed to an adult, children in general
are farm more suggestible than adults.  There has been much
discussion about leading questions throughout this case, in terms
of children of this development level what can be the effect of

35  leading questions? A leading question implies that you feed
something inot the child's mind and depending on the circumstances
surrounding those suggestions the child can accept what has been
fed into their mind and reproduce it subsequently as though it has






                        Page 581

come from their mind, and not from another source.  Its another
example of source amnesia.  So leading questions can distort the
memory that the child has.  Because what it does is has the
potential for feeding information into a child's mind that is not

5   already there and that can become mixed up with what the child's
actual  experience has been.  Once the information is in the
child's mind from a leading question, it is capable of being
clarified by other questioning, it is possible but it makes it more
difficult because it does bring in another aspect of the source

10  amnesia which you didn't mention and that is what is called source
monitoring and children are less able than older people to monitor
where information has come from and if you add additional
information to a child's mind over and above what their experience
has been it makes it that much more difficult for the child to

15  monitor where that information has come from, it is not impossible
but it creates additional difficulties.  Where a concept has been
introduced to a child of this age through leading questioning, that
child can then create a scenario around that concept.  You see in
relation to these experiences -

20  I have in fact analysed the total number of items.  Without ref. to
specific examples, in general terms I have analysed the no. of
items of information and not one of them contained more than two
images. Two quite simple images which are within the understanding
of these children and its very easy for children to assimilate two

25  simple images and against an infrastructure of their previous
experiences to embellish that.   Taking an example of a car
accident, if a child was told they were in a car accident that
child would be able to embellish upon that concept?  Its possible
but its usual that bad accidents are associated with fear and

30  people want to forget as much as possible.  But certainly yes they
can embellish it and one constantly sees it in Courts particularly
with older people, they exaggerate.   I have heard Dr Zelas give
evidence on Monday about a certain amount of behavioural
indicators, with reference to these indicators, I have heard of

35  those indicators before.  I have seen them in articles and various
books.   She has referred to toileting problems, sleeping problems,
nightmares, night terrors, headaches, sexualised behaviour,
tantrums, fear of intruders, reluctance of attending creche, eating






                        Page 582

problems.  I have heard of such indicators listed concerning sexual
abuse before, I have seen various people writing about such
indicators but in fact all of those apart from the sexualised
behaviour are all symptoms of threat stress and it is extremely

5   important to identify what the trheat source is because those
symptoms can occur with any threat stress. With sexualised
behaviour that raises the index of suspicion that one needs to
explore that for its sexual history if you like to determine how
why and when that occurred but the other symptoms are generalised

10  symptoms which can accompany any threat stress, they do not draw a
diagnostic labour with the DSM3R.  DSM3R is a diagnostic and
statis. manual of mental disorders which is organised around a
symptom complex.  The manual, one is prepared by the American I
think Psychiatric Association.  Another one is called the ICD or

15  International Classification of Disease Disorders and neither of
these classifications gives any mention to any aspect of sexual
abuse as producing or causing any specific entity or constellation
of symptoms.    There are behaviours to be seen in children
consistent with sexual abuse, there are certainly physical signs

20  and symptoms.  The diagnostic ones are def. physical signs and
symptoms like injuries to the genital regions the presence of semen
etc. The sexualised behaviours raises the index of suspicion.
Sexualised behaviour can be seen as being consistent with a child
who has been sexually abused.  It may not have been abused it may

25  have occurred with other members of the peer group consenting but
one has to explore that to consider if its evidence of abuse. What
I am saying is sexualised behaviour once you explore that
background area is consistent with behaviour of children who have
been sexually abused, it can be.  In relation to the other

30  behaviours that we have heard from Dr Zelas about, one has to or
should explore the total background history of the child and its
family to determine whether there are any other possible causes or
reasons for those symptoms.  Once that has been done then one can
say whether those behaviours are consistent or inconsistent, they

35  may occur with sexual abuse providing the act of sexual abuse comes
within the framework of threat stress.  Ref. to threat stress, the
type of behaviour that you would see in a child such as Dr Zelas
ref. to depends on the level of threat or stress that the child has






                        Page 583

experienced.  Dr Zelas also ref. to situations where children
retract or resile from an earlier allegation of abuse and said this
is consistent with children who have been sexually abused.  I refer
to this as the law of reversibility, that is another aspect of it.

5   Children who have been sexually abused certainly do retract
partic. when it is within the family unit and there are very great
pressures on it.  As to what possible pressures on a child in a
family situation would make the child wish to retract from an
allegation of abuse, for example if a mother said to the child if

10  you go ahead with this Dad will go to gaol or the family will break
up, that would be a typical example. There are other children who
retract because what they said originally wasn't true. There is
also the general law of reversibility which applies to all children
and I guess adults that when a person is old enough to reason they

15  can correct something that they might have said or done previously
and say that what they said some time back is no longer true
because they have had time to reflect on it and reverse their
opinion.  Dr Zelas also referred to a delay in disclosure as being
consistent with child abuse.  The delay of disclosing abuse,

20  sometimes that is true, sometimes children do reveal it immediately
to either a family member, a school teacher, neighbour, a trusted
person.  Certainly many of them, particularly if the family
relationships are not good, if it occurs within the family, can
delay it for many many years well into adult life.  That does occur

25  but also it depends on the nature of the abuse and how distressing
it might have been at the particular time.  For example if there is
only one event one would expect a child to come out with most of
that information perhaps at the first sitting.  If there are
multiple events it is not usual for a person to bring out multiple

30  events in one sitting, because they want to dwell on one at a time.
Ref. to reversibility, I referred to family situations where there
were pressures on a child.  As to any other sorts of pressures on a
child that would cause a child to make a retraction of an
allegation of sexual abuse, there can be internal pressures or

35  external pressures.  External pressures from other people and
internal self-generated by the child.  Ref. to s.23G(2)(c), this is
relating to particular complainants and their behaviour that I
observed or heard about.  Ref. to Zelda Cypress, Dr Zelas has






                        Page 584

referred to this child's behaviour as being consistent with a child
who has been abused. She has referred to the child being at creche,
being extremely extroverted, happy enough child, following
departure from the creche being less extroverted, not confident and

5   frightened of minor things, she said that behaviour could be
consistent with a child being abused.  In relation to that evidence
I would say that is inconsistent with a child who has been abused.
The families whose children went to the creche were part time
parents.  She had part time care at home and part time care at the

10  creche with parent substitutes.  And my information is she became
extremely dependent on the substitute -
The mother has said that Zelda while at creche was an extremely
extroverted happy enough child, following departure from creche
being less extroverted, not confident and frightened of minor

15  things, my belief is she lost security moving from the creche to a
new school environment and she felt threatened with this lack of
protection that she had at the creche.  So the behavioural change
referred to that occurs once she starts school is consistent with a
change in environment as opposed to sexual abuse.

20  In relation to the second matter Dr Zelas raised which was the fact
that the child began suffering stress headaches at age 4 and 1/2.
Stress headaches are consistent with her experiencing threat stress
and one has to analyse what the cause of that stress is, you can't
take it any further than that.   The fact that the mother ref. to

25  a stressful family environment could also be consistent with the
child suffering stress headaches.

ADJOURNED:  11.30






                        Page 585

RESUMED:    11.45
Where a child is recalling events from over 5 years ago would you
expect that child to be capable of recalling 80 individual items of
information? No.

5   In relation to a delay in disclosure due to threat stress, what
would you expect to see when a child makes disclosure? The type of
stress they experienced at the time of the incident.
In relation to Zelda Cypress, did you see such behavioural
indicators in her interview? No.  In my opinion that is not

10  consistent with a child who has been sexually abused.
Ref. to tantrums, tantrums are outbursts of frustrated aggression
most commonly seen with the terrible 2s and 3s when they can't get
their own way and have minimal control over their aggression and
minimal directions in which to direct their aggression. You see

15  tantrums in older children, particularly when they are frustrated.
Ref. to Molly Sumach, Dr Zelas ref. to this child suffering night
terrors from age 2 and 1/2 years, the time she was still at the
Wombles End.  Are night terrors consistent with children who
have suffered sexual abuse? They are consistent with a child being

20  frightened.  Night terrors which began with a child at the age of 2
and 1/2 years would not be consistent with a child who said that
sexual abuse commenced at the Big End when over 3 years of age.
Night terrors in a child of 2 and 1/2 would be consistent with a
child feeling frightened and insecure because the night terror is a

25  manifestation of something coming from the unconscious which
overwhelms them when they are still asleep and usually they are
quite amnesic for their utterances or whatever behaviour, shouting,
crying etc.  Its an unconscious expression of frightening distress.
Ref. to tantrums, Dr Zelas refers to this child suffering a tantrum

30  on the night of a fireworks display when the parents attempted to
park in the old creche car park.  That tantrum is consistent with
her being frustrated about something but unless we know
specifically what it is you can't take it any further, it is not in
itself consistent with abuse.

35  Children of the ages of 5-7, when they recount for the first time a
delayed disclosure of sexual abuse, what would you expect in terms
of the central detail remaining consistent?  Depending on the
actual age of the child, the younger the child the less consistent






                        Page 586

the central detail would be, the older the child the more accurate
the central detail may be.  For example where a child has made a
disclosure outlining matters in a videotape of a delayed disclosure
of sexual abuse, over a period of time the memories at a later date

5   are reconstructed memories of an alleged earlier event. And the
reconstructed memories are based on the child's present knowledge
and present understanding of things and also can contain informn
provided by other people and it may or may not bear any resemblance
with the original experience.  Because of the phenomena I mentioned

10  before about infantile amnesia that they cannot spontaneously
themselves resurrect that material.  I ref. you to earlier if an
event was not stressful you would not expect behavioural indicators
to occur? No.  There would be one qualification to that, if parents
at a later date said something to a child that it was terrible that

15  you did such and such a thing that can create from that moment
onwards emotional distress or embarrassment or shame about
something that happened but that would date from the time the
child was told that, it would not be dated from the time of any
alleged incident.   Under general development level of children of

20  this age, if the child can describe an event without displaying
distress, that is not consistent with traumatic sexual abuse.  To
have behavioural indicators being displayed in a child such as bed
wetting, night terrors, fear of men, toilets those sorts of things,
what sort of experience would the child need to have? The child

25  would be anxious and insecure about something or other or some
person or other.  Because they are all manifestations with
emotional insecurity.
Ref. to Abigail Fir, ref. to nightmares, bed wetting, fear of
men and fear of toilets.  That is not consistent with children who

30  have suffered sexual abuse and its consistent with a child being
frightened about something.
Ref. to Eli Laurel, Dr Zelas has ref. to the child unzipping his
father's and grandfather's trousers and ref. to this as a
sexualised behaviour.  I have seen this happen myself with young

35  children at an age where they are wanting to confirm their own
masculinity and compares theirs with the others, sometimes they
will even ask them if they will show them their doodle to compare
them so its not in itself a sexualised behaviour but part of their






                        Page 587

growing identification with masculinity and wanting to compare
themselves with an adult.   So the fact that the child unzipped the
father's and grandfather's trousers, is not consistent with
sexually abused behaviour.

5   There is also a reference to the child running around calling
himself Penis Man, I would regard that as a child who is wanting
acknowledgment of his masculinity that he does have a penis and is
a man not a female.  It is not consistent with sexual abuse.
There has also been reference to this child masturbating himself in

10  the back of the car in front of two other children.  That sort of
behaviour can be sexualised behaviour but it can also be a
manifestation of what is called auto erotism, that the child turns
to their own body for satis. when their needs are not being met in
other ways and masturbation is common in young children of both

15  sexes.  That behaviour in itself is not consistent with sexual
abuse.  As to what I would say to a clustering of the behaviour
whereby the child has unzipped the father and grandfather's zip,
has run round calling himself Penis Man and has masturbated in the
back of the car, a collecn of those behaviours would that say to

20  you this behaviour was consistent or inconsistent with the
behaviours of sexually abused children of the same age? It can be
both. If a child has been sexually aroused by an adult person that
could in itself explalin this arousal and quite independently it
can be part of the growing up process and part of his wish to be

25  identified as a male person in showing and also in masturbating
himself to generate pleasant satisfaction in the process.  There
has also been reference by the mother to the child being angry with
her.   That behaviour is more consistent with some sort of conflict
between the child and its mother than with the behaviour of a child

30  of the same age who has been sexually abused.  The Doctor also ref.
to the comment the child made "I'll stick my finger up your
bottom".  That is certainly one that I would want to explore to
find out how he acquired that mode of thinking.
Ref. to Julian Yew, the mother has recounted prior to being at

35  the creche the child had been an active, affectionate, open and
loving child, whereas while he was at creche he became
progressively distanced from her and seemed to be removed or
separate from the rest of the family, we are also aware of the fact






                        Page 588

that around this time there was a second child in the family,
bearing all those points in mind would you say that behaviour is
consistent or inconsistent with behaviour of a child of a similar
age who had been sexually abused? No inconsistent.  I say that

5   because of the factors mentioned, he has been displaced by a second
child, he has now got another child between him and his mother so
he is more distant from her, I know there are other explanations.
Other background information.  I recall the mother giving evidence
about what was happening in her life around about that time.    In

10  1990                                            Julian was in full
time care.                                                I believe
that he had been in 2 other creches, I am not sure if that was
before or after, so he has had a lot of sepn from his mother, an
absent father and more recently the advent of another child that he

15  has to share perhaps not a very big supply of affection.  Dr Zelas
ref. to the toileting behaviour of this child in that he waited
till the last minute, rushed in and out again and was quite messy.
That sort of behaviour is not consistent with the behaviour of
similarly aged children who have been sexually abused in my

20  experience.  As to what sort of behaviour that is consistent with,
if the child has had regular bowel training prior to a certain
period of time and there has been a change, if he has gone when the
biological need has made him consciously aware he needs to go to
the toilet, if there has been a change one needs to look at what

25  changed in his life to cause this altered pattern of behaviour.
I viewed the interviews of this particular child.  From what I
observed of the child his behaviours in the interview are
inconsistent with a child disclosing sexual abuse.  This was a
child who also retracted his allegation.  Such a retraction can be

30  consistent with behaviour of a child of this age who suffered
sexual abuse. It can also be that when he recanted he was also
telling the truth, that these events that he alleged had not
occurred.
Tess Hickory, the mother has referred to the child leaving the

35  toilet door open and often needing to go to the toilet in
restaurants and spending a long time in there.   Dr Zelas stated
that behaviour and unusual toileting behaviours are consistent with
child sexual abuse.  In my experience such behaviour just described






                        Page 589

is inconsistent with behaviours of children of a similar age who
have suffered sexual abuse.  Dr Zelas has ref. to sexualised
activity by the child and the child putting her mouth down at her
genitals and methodical washing of the mother in the bath and she

5   stated that is consistent with child sexual abuse.  Dealing with
the mouth over the genital area, based on what the child disclosed
in her interviews, as to whether that display of behaviour would be
consistent or inconsistent with child sexual abuse of a child of
similar age, it would have warranted a question as to what her

10  behaviour meant and because no questions were asked nobody could
take it any further than that.  The methodical washing of the
mother in the bath, the mother said it was a common practice she
and Tess bathed together and I presumed washed each other.  That
was not consistent with sexualised behaviour.  They also ref. to

15  the child wanting to vomit when preparing the books and also
vomiting when coming back from counselling.  That behaviour is not
in itself significant in sexual abuse. What it would suggest was
the child was possibly upset about something but unless that was
explored one can't take it any further.

20  Ref. to Bart Dogwood, Dr Zelas refers to relating to his toileting
it was noticed he would hold on till he got home, he was reluctant
to go to the toilet at creche from age 3 and 1/2 to 4.  As to
whether that is consistent or inconsistent with child sexual abuse
in children of a similar age, not consistent.  Dr Zelas also ref.

25  to a fear of spiders and insects and said fears in general may
become focussed on partic. objects, they may be consistent with
sexual abuse. They are phobic reactions that the child was
frightened within, externalised his fear.  This is inconsistent
with behaviour of children of a similar age who have suffered

30  sexual abuse.  There is also a reference by Dr Zelas to the mother
describing the child's toileting, soiling and wetting.  His
regression to soiling and wetting following the times he made
disclosures of sexual abuse and she said this is consistent with
sexual abuse.  Such behaviours in a child are inconsistent with

35  behaviours of children of a similiar age who are sexually abused.
I say that because they are indications of regressive behaviour to
an earlier infantile level associated with a lot of aggression and
because that happened at home one has to look at the home






                        Page 590

background first to be able to determine the possible cause.  In
ref. to these behaviours, where a child is displaying behavioural
problems, if they are related to child abuse would you expect them
to permeate all aspects of the child's life or just some aspects?

5   Depending on the severity, if they are moderately severe to severe
one would expect them to permeate all aspects of their life at home
and away from home.  So where a child does not display behaviours
at school but does display them at home that would be an indicator
of a child having suffered sexual abuse? No.  What it indicates is

10  that the child has got a greater degree of self control at school
than he does at home, that is not an indicator of sexual abuse.  Dr
Zelas also refers to anxieties and fears at nighttime, with delay
getting to sleep at night and parents feeling a requirement to
check on him every few mins so he would go to sleep and also

15  reassure him windows were locked and checked and this again had
developed since the time when he had disclosed sexual abuse, are
these matters consistent or inconsistent with a child who suffered
sexual abuse of a similar age? Inconsistent.    Ref. to the child's
behaviour during interviews, was the behaviour he displayed during

20  the interviews consistent or inconsistent with a child of a similar
age who suffered sexual abuse? Inconsistent and quite incongruous.
He described occasns where he was locked in a cage, put in an oven.
Tape 4 ref. to the circle incident and tape 2 to being in the house
by himself, I seem to remember in one tape he talked about being

25  put in a cage by Peter, Gaye, Marie and Jan.
During the playing of tape 2 and tape 4 of this child's interviews
what did you observe of his behaviour? What I do remember is he
was emotionally flat, he lay on the floor for much of the time
during one interview.  He was quite indifferent and when I think

30  asked about how he felt talking about these things he said I don't
care.  That seemed to characterise his attitude about talking about
those things, totally indifferent and incongruous.  This child
described in one of those tapes varius matters.  As to what I would
expect in his behaviour when describing these matters -

35  In reference to tape 4 he ref. to a needle being placed up his
penis and also to a group of adults being naked, was his behaviour
when he described that in the fourth interview consistent or
inconsistent with behaviour of a ch ild of a similar age who has






                        Page 591

suffered sexual abuse? No its not consistent.
Ref. to Kari Lacebark, Dr Zelas refers to difficulties with regard to
sleep and increasing levels of anger after the child turned the
age of 3, sleeping diffs. of this nature are consistent with child

5   sexual abuse as are disturbances in the child's mood and temper
often directed to the people closest to the child such as the
parents in this instance, she goes on to say "Even though the child
might be quite controlled and well behaved in the setting in which
they are exposed to the abusive behaviour", in relation to Dr Zelas

10  comments, what would you say about the behaviour being in the
environment where the abuse is alleged to have occurred?  I would
regard that as being distress in relation to her mother and
whatever behaviour was directed towards the mother related to the
mother child relationship rather than being projected from

15  somewhere or some time in the past onto the mother as an
alternative object to vent her aggression.  In relation to her
behaviour as being quite controlled and well behaved in a setting
where they are exposed to the abusive behaviour, that is
inconsistent with the behaviour of children who have suffered

20  sexual abuse.  Dr Zelas then goes on to state " the physical pain
such a sore tummy, intermittent sore bottom ... child sexual abuse"
those behaviour are inconsistent with sexual abuse but they are
consistent with chronic stress.  If I can add a rider from my time
in Bristol where one of the consultants I was associated with did a

25  study on abdominal pain and 98% of the children who presented at
the Bristol Childrens Hospital had an emotional cause for their
abdominal pain.  His name was Dr John Apley.    Dr Zelas also ref.
to the fact the mother commented on the child's general attitude
toward being in the toilet in that she would rush in and out as

30  quickly as possible which contributed to her toileting diffs. and
at home she also expressed anxieties about being in the toilet to
the extent the parents decorated the toilet for her and had to use
deodorant spray in the toilet because Kari did not like to smell
the smell of her bowel motions, Dr Zelas sayd that in her opinion

35  this is consistent with some of the matters the child has raised
herself, are those behaviours consistent or inconsistent with
children of a similar age who have suffered sexual abuse?
Inconsistent.  Dr Zelas refers to tantrums and states "Kari verally






                        Page 592

abusing her mother, having extreme fits of anger, noticed partic.
after the age of 3 by which time she had moved to the Big End of
the creche", are tantrums a behaviour that are consistent or
inconsistent with the behaviours of children who have suffered

5   sexual abuse? I have already given a previous answer but
inconsistent, they represent frustration.   Dr Zelas also refers to
physical skills, she states that delay in physical skills can be
due to a variety of things but that does not normally dramatically
change in the way that has been described here unless it is

10  actually linked in some way with disclosure of the abuse, she goes
on to refer to the fact that there was a dramatic improvement after
the child had started to discuss the matters concerning creche,
bearing those points in mind is that physical improvement in Kari
consistent or inconsistent with behaviours of children of a similar

15  age who have disclosed sexual abuse? Inconsistent.
Ref. to Yelena Holly, she refers to the child being frightened
of men together with a fear of sleeping in her own bed at night and
often waking up during the night and getting into bed with her
mother.  Dr Zelas states these fears are consistent with a child of

20  this age who has been sexually abused by a male.  These behaviours
are inconsistent with the behaviours of a child who has been
sexually abused of a similar age. What they indicate is an insecure
mother daughter relationship.  The fear of men, one would have to
explore that to determine why.  I believe the parents were

25  separated, there was an absent father, one doesn't know the
background history to the parents separating.  Dr Zelas also refers
to the mother describing Yelena as being frightened of going to the
toilet at nights and fears generally about going to the toilet and
states that is consistent with child sexual abuse.  That behaviour

30  is inconsistent with the behaviour of children who have been
sexually abused who are of a similar age to the child Yelena.  That
behaviour is consistent with a child who is very anxious about
something, particularly I have a recollecn of somebody moving to
a new house where the toilet was a long way, its an insecurity of

35  being alone at night and this is consistent with her wanting to be
in the bed with mother at night.  On the evidence of the mother
this child was placed in child care at a very young age and for the
latter part of her creche years was babysat in the evenings.   With






                        Page 593

that background in mind, that alone doesn't change my opinion that
this behaviour is inconsistent with a child of that age who has
been sexually abused.  Dr Zelas says she was less than 18 months of
age so she was not at the point of being toilet trained or being

5   nearly toilet trained at the time she went to the creche.  She
states so that there has been a delay in acquiring those skills
which is consistent with sexual abuse.  That behaviour is not
consistent with children of similar age who have suffered sexual
abuse.  Probably what it does indicate she was a late developer in

10  developing control over her nocturnal wetting because she used
nappies until she started school which was more than 6 months after
she left the creche.
Ref. to Derek Ngaio, there was a problem of toileting
with this child at creche.  That would be inconsistent with a

15  child who suffered sexual abuse of a similar age.  It is more
consistent with his general immaturity.  The fact that the child's
toileting improved after his first disclosure would be inconsistent
with a child who suffered sexual abuse? I couldn't really comment
on that as to what other factors might be involved in reassuring

20  him but its not necessarily a functional displacement.
Dr Zelas ref. to fears and anxieties generally.  We heard some
detailed evidence from his mother about his fears of intruders and
laying out traps, laying bones and what not across the windowsills,
fears of burglars.  These fears and anxieties described by the

25  mother are inconsistent with a child of a similar age who has
suffered sexual abuse.  Its more consistent with his personality
disorder and I would diagnose him as suffering from a pervasive
developmental disorder.  The most marked feature being his
flattened affect or lack of emotional responsiveness and also in

30  the interview that was shown to the Court he looked at the
interviewer once, the rest of the time he played with the toys and
he giggled briefly 3 times only and those sorts of behaviours are
characteristic of this type of disorder, that they relate better to
objects than people. They are subject to all sorts of fears, they

35  have a heightened sensitivity to fears, also I seem to remember
that a relative was a burglar, I think that was in this family.
And that that may have had something to do with his fear of
burglars and one could see from his dress when he appeared that he






                        Page 594

has got a preoccupation with trying to protect himself from real or
imaginary threats to his personal safety.  He was also described as
being an obsessional person, wanting his life to be very organised,
like having a fence around him and when the fence is moved and he

5   can't see the boundaries of personal safety he becomes very
anxious and he doesn't like change of any sort.  There was a ref.
to his behaviour by the mother at school where it was reported to
her that the child was found withdrawn into a foetal position.
That sort of behaviour is not consistent with children of a similar

10  age who have suffered sexual abuse.  It is consistent with the type
of symptoms that I have described, the condition I described. It is
a symptom of excessive fear that he is regressing to a foetal
position for personal protection.  The fact that that occurred at a
primary school would not make any diff. to my diagnosis.  Probably

15  what it does indicate was there were certain fears at school at
that time which triggered that behaviour off.
There was also discussion of the fact that he was scared in the
back seat of the car when Eli Laurel was masturbating in the back
seat of the car.  That sort of behaviour displayed by Derek is

20  inconsistent with the behaviour of children of a similar age who
have been sexually abused. It is in general inconsistent, it would
be very diff. to get an accurate answer unless somebody asked
Derek why he was frightened of that.
Ref. to Lara Palm under s.23G(2), this is the child

25  who remembers being in an incubator and having a tube up her nose
that she pulled out.  Her mental attainment or emotional maturity
is not such she would be able to recall such an event. That
experience after she was first born in the humidicrib is blanketed
by the infantile amnesia and pre verbal period and she would have

30  no framework of reference whatsoever to recall that.  Her mother
said it was common knowledge within the family which means that
informn would have been conveyed to her and not arisen from her
personal experience which is a demonstration of source amnesia.
Dr Zelas also refers to major tantrums in the morning prior to

35  going to creche.  This is inconsistent with the behaviour of
children of this age who have been sexually abused.  It is a
protest that perhaps she doesn't want to go, she wants to stay
home.  It is not consistent with abuse.






                        Page 595

Generally children of this age would be able to hold on from going
to the toilet from 9 in the morning till 3 in the afternoon - Mr
Stanaway objects.
Would a child be able to hold on all day say from 9 till 3 oclock

5   without going to the toilet? To use their bowel or urinate. Either?
It would be very difficult part, if they had anything to drink
during the day to hold on to not emptying their bladder. Certainly
it is possible for them to hold onto their bowel motion all day.
There is a condition called mega colon where the lower part of the

10  bowel balloons out and becomes a gigantic storage and can contain
the motion without overflow.  There are others who can hold on to
the main part of a motion but where there is an overflow and their
underwear is soiled but I would think if they held onto their
bladder if it was distended that that could be rather painful.

15  BENCH
What you are really saying is they could hold on but they would be
in discomfort? Yes.
COUNSEL
Ref. to Lara the mother noticed on arrival the child would often

20  need to go to the toilet and had apparently been holding on all day
and would often only go to the toilet when accompanied by the
mother.  Dr Zelas says this is consistent with abuse of a child of
this age.  Is the holding on from going to the toilet consistent or
inconsistent with the behaviour of children of a similar age who

25  have been sexually abused? Its inconsistent on its own.   Dr Zelas
refers to the mother noting from 4 years of age on an increase in
the frequency of the nightmares and the child often afraid to sleep
in her own room at night, they stopped in 1992 and re-emerged prior
to the hearing, is that behaviour of nightmares consistent or

30  inconsistent with the behaviour of a child of a similar age
sexually abused? It is consistent with a child of a similar age who
is upset about something but not necessarily consistent with sexual
abuse.  As to what behaviour I observed in this child throughout
her first interview, I thought she was relaxed, but I thought she

35  was relaxed, animated, talked freely, responded appropriately to
questions.  I didn't detect anything abnormal in that interview.
As to her behaviour in front of the camera in Court, I tyought
there was a marked changed, she had lost that freedom, animation






                        Page 596

and she appeared more like Bart with this rather flat expression.
She had grown a lot in the past year and there was certainly marked
difference in her emotional responses.  Was her behaviour in the
interview consistent or inconsistent with children of a similar age

5   who suffered sexual abuse? I thought it was quite normal behaviour
and not consistent with sexual abuse.   Dr Zelas refers to sore
heads, stomach aches, vomiting that the mother described that are
consistent with sexual abuse.  Those pscyhosomatic symptoms are
consistent with threat stress but not necessarily child sexual

10  abuse.  Threat stress can come from any stress at all that the
child believes is a threat to its personal wellbeing or a
frustrating situation.  They can be multiple.  As to what would be
an example of a threat stress not associated with child abuse, any
conflict within the family.  That is where most emotional problems

15  with children arise, conflict between parent and child.  There can
be emotional deprivation, inappropriate parenting, these would be
the two most common causes.  Deprivation and inappropriate
parenting, also conflict between parents.  Where a child is
separated briefly from a parent say for a period of 3-4 weeks that

20  could bring about such a thing as threat stress.  As to a change in
environment such as moving to a new house, that can be unsettling
for some children, not every child but certainly for some.  There
has been reference to clustering of behaviours as well, can
clusters of behaviours occur in areas rather than sexual abuse? Yes

25  certainly.              What would be an example of a situation
that could cause clustering behaviours?  Lets use as an example
children who are too frightened to separate from mother to go to
school or creche.   They become clingy, want to hold on, if they
get pushed away they get aggressive, their security is undermined,

30  that can affect all aspects of their behaivour, their eating,
sleeping behaviour and their general state of wellbeing around the
home or wherever they might be, they tend to become pesky and want
more of the mother's or mother substitute's attention to reassure
them.

35
ADJOURNED:  1.00






                        Page 597

RESUMED:    2.15
As to what behaviours I would say are consistent with a child of
the particular age of the children we are referring to having been
sexually abused, it depends on first of all whether the child has

5   been sexualised by their experiences, whether there has been sexual
arousal.  In that case one would certainly accept that any such
sexualised behaviours could lead one to suspect sexual abuse. With
those that have not been sexually aroused it is very much more
difficult to pinpoint indicators of sexual abuse.  One may then

10  have to trace their history back to the time of the event or events
to determine what changes of behaviour or feelings etc. might have
occurred from that onwards, as part of a family history.  As to
what behaviours in the interview process that we have seen I would
regard as consistent with sexual abuse, there are no behaviours

15  whatsoever that I have seen that indicate sexualised behaviour and
there aren't any other behaviours I would say was consistent with
those who may have been abused but not sexually aroused.  As to
what sort of behaviours I would be looking for in the interviews,
as to what aspect of the behaviour I would consider consistent with

20  sexual abuse, again one has to consider the whole spectrum of
sexually abusive behaviour to a pornographic photo at one extreme
and sexual sadism at the other extreme.  There is a sliding scale.
One wouldn't expect much if anything at all at the pornographic
photograph depending on the nature of it of course.  If it was

25  horrific, but certainly one would expect an increase in scale of
distress along the spectrum up to sexual sadism to a condition
called post traumatic distress order where the symptoms can be
virtually life long.    Ref. to the particular children under
S.23G, as to whether any of the complainants here have displayed

30  behaviour I have ref. to under s.23G as being consistent with
sexual abuse in the interviews, no.
STANAWAY XXD
In the past 23 years you have been in private practice what ppn of
your practice has been in general child psychiatry? It fluctuates

35  from week to week month to month, probably about 1/10th or a bit
more, it has increased during the last 7 years.  What proportion of
your practice in that 23 years has dealt with child sexual abuse? I
have dealt with that mainly since the end of 1985, with children






                        Page 598

who have been abused but throughout the whole of my adult working
world I have been treating people who have been sexually abused at
some stage in their life.  What proportion then of your practice is
related to the assessment and treatment of children who have been

5   sexually abused? I haven't got those figures in front of me but
they have been provided, Mr Harrison has got them. Roughly? I
haven't got the figures in front of me, my short term memory is not
good.  Witness ref. to papers.  I am talking about the ppn of your
practice relating to the assessment and treatment of children said

10  to be suffering from sexual abuse? Well since 1985 until I came to
NZ for this case I had 104 cases ref. to me, 88 in Adelaide , one
in NSW, 4 in Queensland, 1 in Western Aust., 7 in the Northern
Territory and 3 others in NZ.   With all those cases I haven't
'seen children in all those cases, I have seen children in some

15  cases.  The biggest majority would be expressing second opinions on
information that is available in the Courts by defence counsel.  To
answer my question what ppn of your practice has been in relation
to the assessment and treatment of children who have been sexually
abused? I am not allowed to assess or treat sexually abused

20  children who are in the process, this is a Crown stipulation that
they have their own medical personnel, it used to be what they
called the sexual assault referral centre, its now attached to 2
units at the childrens hospital and the Flinders Medical Centre and
it is mandatory that children and their families have to go to

25  those centres. So the opportunities for you to see children are ltd
because of the den taken? Yes.  After judicial processes what
children have you seen and treated? In fact I have seen some of
those children who have come for a second opinion, sometimes via
the childrens representative and I have agreed with some of the

30  diagnoses and videotaped and one or two cases I haven't agreed with
them but again unless children or families break away from the
Welfare Dept and the centres who do the assessing I am not really
allowed to treat those children although some have come to me, they
have refused to go to the Centres.  Ihave treated possibly off the

35  top of my head 10 or more who have come away from that system,
young children.  10 or more? Yes.  Accordingly, because of the set
up in your State, in the main your appearances have been for people
alleged to be the abusers of children? Yes.  Are you familiar with






                        Page 599

an article in the Australian bulletin which I will show you in 1988
a photocopy of it, do you recall that article? Yes I do. Were you
interviewed for that? Yes.  There is a ref. to you there being a
crusader for the rights of men alleged to have been abusers of

5   children, would you accept that as an appropriate reference to your
style of apperance? No I would not and that name was not provided
by me, it was provided by somebody else who was interviewed by the
person who wrote this article because she interviewed multiple
people including people in the Welfare Dept and I had no discretion

10  whatsoever what other people said about whatever opinion they might
have held about me but the fact is I was respected by the Min. of
Health and Social Welfare in not having anything to do with the
evaluation of children. YOu don't accept then crusader? What I have
been crusading for if you want to use that word.  Do you accept it

15  or not? What I have been crusading for is a proper protocol to
properly evaluate allegations of child sexual abuse and what I have
been advocating since late 1986 early 1987 is what I presented at
the Commonwealth Law Conf. in Auck. in April 1990 at the invitation
of a New Zealander.  Well on that then did you submit that same

20  paper to the Royal Aust. and NZ. College of Psychiatrists for the
re-evaluation of guidelines for clinical evaln of sexual abuse? Yes
in April last year and the letter in response was that seeing I had
submitted that protocol was they would ask who ever was appointed
to liaise with me to try to formulate some guidelines.  In other

25  words your study or your document was rejected wasn't it?  No.  It
was accepted and passed on to the faculty of child psychiatrists
with the rider in the letter that they would ask the faculty to
liaise with me to help prepare appropriate guidelines, that is not
a rejection.  Do you know who h as been asked to assist in the

30  formulation of those guidelines? Well I didn't know till I saw Dr
Zelas' reply affidavit to my affidavit at an earlier hearing. You
know its her? I do now but I didn't before, because I have not
recvd any indicn from anybody since. The guidelines you forwarded
are for reassessment, wld that be an approp. way of putting it? No

35  its to draw an approp. protocol, the only 2 guidelines that are
available have been published on the international scene are the
guidelines provided by the American Acad. of Child Psych, in 1988
which I appended at the back of my booklet and a more recent book






                        Page 600

published by Dr David Jones of Oxford in relation to interviewing
the sexually abused child. I find it quite incredible the American
Academy has not upgraded their protocol in view of the amt of
trouble this problem causes in the US and I felt there was a need

5   for somebody to upgrade it to include all the parameters of this
particular problem.  You have done that and it hasn't been accepted
isn't that the case? I have not had a letter from the College of
Psychiatrists saying my letter to them rejected what I proposed.
They said they would ask the faculty of child psychiatrists to

10  liaise with me and I haven't had any response to that but I don't
accept that as a rejection.  You are familiar with the works of
P.H. Jones obviously? David Jones.     Yes I corresponded with
him. David P.H. Jones? Yes.  Reliable and Fictitious Accounts of
Sexual Abuse to Children, an article by him? I am not sure whether

15  I have read that one or not.  This was included in material from Dr
Zelas submitted pre trial? If it was then I have read it.  Do you
recall that article generally? Yes I do now.  Under the heading the
Child's Statement, there is a ref. to the emotion expressed by the
child during the interview was usually ... with the events being

20  described, however two caveats were made, ... emotional response"
do you accept those proposns? They can be true but I am not quite
sure what he means by a blunted emotional response, that is what I
would call a state dependent, outwardly they might appear blunted,
but if one analysed the original experience you are more likely to

25  get what their true feelings were at that particular time. He is
not saying in that whether the blunted relates to what is
encapsulated in the state dependent experience or just the external
expression.  YOu would accept based on research conducted by Dr
Jones there are occasns when a child dependent on the nature of the

30  abuse may appear to be blunted or have a flat appearance? Ther are
2 riders to that too, one is the nature of the child's personality,
if we can use Bart Dogwood as an example, he is an emotionally
flat person and youwouldn't expect a great deal of emotion in his
facial expressions, the other is what type of abuse they were

35  actually exposed to because he doesn't differentiate but certainly
I would agree somebody like Bart and there are many people in
this world who are emotionally flat and relatively unresponsive.
Infantile childhood amnesia I suggest to you what that relates to






                        Page 601

is a theory based on research of adults in which it is extrapolated
back a theory which relates to children? No I disagree with that,
it is also based onj a lot of research on children and some recent
articles published in a book Knowing and Remembering which I think

5   is in Court edited by ... and some other person.  On research done
on children researching this aspect of childhood memories.  Isn't
the research in the main based on an adult's inability to recall
early childhood memories? these are not adults, these are children
we are talking about. The article I submitted initially certainly

10  was basd on adults.  The article contained in this book relates to
experiments on children.  Can a 3 year old child be a witness to
sexual assault and murder the author being David P.H. Jones are you
aware of that? Yes.   Wld you agree with me "recent psychol.
studies of children who have witnessed events and subsequently

15  recalled them show that even children as young as 3 years can
register and recall events accurately particularly if they are
given toys and materials with which to cue their memories"? That is
not inconsistent with what I said this morning when I said the
childhood amnesic period blankets the pre verbal period completely.

20  After the acquisition of language children can recount more
progressively and what you have reported is consistent with a
gradual progressive lifting of the infantile amnesic period but
what is diff. for a 3 year old is to attach meanings, they can
recount events as you have just recorded it and that is not

25  inconsistent with a gradual diminishing effect of the infantile
amnesic period.  We are not here though dealing with pre verbal
children are we?  Some of these children started at the creche at
the age of 18 months.  Quite a few of them. We are dealing here
with allegns relating to childrenk when they are at the Big End,

30  accordingly they are in the main between 3 and 5 years of age so
they are not pre verbal are they? No.   When these children are
remembering the events which occurred to them the Crown says when
they were between 3 and 5 they are aged between 6 and 9? Now yes.
A child of 6 recalling events which occurred when it was 4 years of

35  age if that event was sufficiently striking will often have a good
recall of that event will it not? Spontaneous.  Dealing with
spontaneously firstly? The research indicates children do not have
spon. recall prior to 5 years or thereabouts.  I am not talkg about






                        Page 602

prior to 5 years? You are talking about an event that occurred at 4
years that is what I mean. Events that occur 5 years or earlier
children do not have a spontaneous capacity to resurrect those
memories from long term memory into the working memory and give a

5   narrative account of them.  So if we said to a 6 year old when you
were at kindergarten when you were 4 did you ever hurt yourself and
if the child had fallen off a bike and ended up going to hospital
you say the children had no recall of that event? That is a cued
question, you have identified the creche or kidnergareten and the

10  fall and given 2 cues.  That is not spontaneous.  So the child
would not be able to say during the course of conversation I
remember when I was at kindergarten I fell from my bicycle and
ended up on in hospital? Children don't spontan. say that, they can
say it in response to a question, there is residual memories, an

15  infrastructure of memories from their first 5 years and in these
cases their period of time at creche, but they lack the capacity to
resurrect those memories from long term memory into conscious
awareness unless they are cued. The cuing could be as simple as
perhaps visiting somebody in hospital themselves? Yes.  The cue

20  could be as innocuous as similar words perhaps used in even anor
context to what occurred when they are 4? It may be but it has to
be something that would bear some resemblance to what their
experience was.  So you would accept that even the slightest cuing
may bring memories of striking events back to a child? That is

25  possible yes.  The cuing could be in a wide range could it not
beginning with the example I have given you of the child being a
visitor in hospital right to the other end of the spectrum of a
leading question? It would depend a lot on whether the original
memory was emotionally toned under the threat stress because byu

30  and large when children are in hospital there is a lot of stress
associated with that and they can be quite easily rearoused by anor
visit to the hospital or even a refusal to go to the hospital.  So
if we say to the same child do you remember when you were at
kindergarten did you ever have an accident there, you would say

35  that amounted to cuing? Well that is a general statement that could
raise 3 plus years perhaps. The memory though you would accept from
that cuing could be reliable? It could be depending, I mean the
older the child is the more likely they are to remember and also






                        Page 603

the extent of the accident.  And the impression it made on the
child's mind, if it was a simple tripping over and they didn't get
hurt they would pas s it off and forget it within minutes.  But an
event which involved trauma or anxiety or stress might well be

5   remembered by a 6 year old occurring to them as a 4 year old? If
its assoc. with threat stress and as a result of cuing they could
recall it yes.  But as I said this morning cuing tends to have more
inaccuracies associated with it than when a child gives a
spontaneous account without any external assistance.  Isn't that

10  also true of adults though in that adults are able to give a much
better account of an event if cued by specific questions surely?
Yes.  As a witness here you are not expected to simply
spontaneously deliver up your evidence, you are cued by specific
questions? Well I am not allowed to. H ere you are cued? I have to

15  be.  State dependent learning as you talked about, that is a theory
isn't it, nothing more?  Its accepted generally in the medical
literature in the sort of world that I operate in yes. Its a well
recognised phenomenon internationally.  YOu dealt with 2 types of
forgetting, there was normal forgetting of various categories and

20  secondly pathological forgetting? Yes.  Whats meant there is a
protection mechanism exercised by the individual to prevent if you
like an over loading of anxiety? Yes.  Quite opposed to normal
forgetting as such? Yes.  Pathological forgetting includes
repression, dissociation, and suppression? Yes.  You have said with

25  regard to a no. of children that when they have appeared on the
videotapes their mood or behaviour has been inconsistent with
recalling a state bound event? Yes.  I have already put to you the
passage from David P.H. Jones which you agreed with subject to some
conditions, it is not always the case is it that when memories are

30  rearoused in a person that they will lre experience parts or all of
the ingredients of the original experience? My experience is when a
child has been traumatised by such an event they will certainly
release some of the distress in some way that is recognisable
associated with those encounters and that is generally supported by

35  the literature.  Isn't it the situation though that you can put it
at no higher than it can rearouse those original experiences in a
child, no more than that? No I would go further than that, if the
exper. is assoc. with threat stress the experience and stress






                        Page 604

emotions are encapsulated tog. in that item of memory that goes
into the long term library that can be subsequently resurrected.
Its unusual for a child or even an adult to resurrect those
memories detached from the feelings that go with it because they

5   are inextricably linked together.  Have you not said in yr brief
prepared for this Court "When these memories are re aroused the
person can re experience parts or all of the ingredients of the
orig. experience"? Yes.  Which is why I put it to you it is only in
some cases that that is so, not always? What is implicit in that

10  is that they dont' necssy release all their distress on the initial
occasn but there is certainly some distress congruent with what
they are talkg about, even with one episode if its part. upsetting
you don't get the full range of distress released on the first
occasion.  Its possible also isn't it if the child has already

15  disclosed prior to the interview that some of the emotional
rearousal may have already been expended? Yes that is possible and
its something one has to inquire about in taking a background
history.  When we have evidence from people like Mrs Palm
talking about her child's disclosure ref. to her buzzing

20  around the room wanting to have a bath with her mother, being very
scared, trembling with fear like her mother had never seen anyone
tremble with fear before, would you not say that perhaps related to
a rearousal of the original experience? Not necssy because I am not
so sure that Mrs Palm said she asked Lara whjat she

25  was so distressed and terrified about.  Because children can
demonstrate behaviour which and symptoms like that in order to
check what they are about you should make contact with their inner
mind to see if the two correspond.   Wasn't it clear that the child
was talking about the accused, that is what they were all talkg

30  about? I am not sure of the time sequence there, whether she is
talkg about minutes or immed. afterwards or a duration of time
after that but certainly that is something that any investigator
investigating this should also have asked this girl to confirm
whether that is what she was terrified about or whether it was

35  something else.  So its possible would you accept that what we saw
in that child was a re-experiencing if you like or re arousal of
the orig. experience? Yes that is possible but as Dr Jones himself
said you should check with the child's mind.   So we have got a






                        Page 605

sitn where there has been a disclosure prior to the interview,
there may be some dissipation if you like of the effects of the re
arousal, thirdly aren't there also psycholog. defence mechanisms
other than those the effect of which is to cause forgetting such as

5   manic defence, denial, isolation from effect, reaction formation?
YOu have really in what you just said posed two quite sep.
question.  The first is we don't know what Mrs Palm
said to her child to elicit these responses, we have only got
her word for it, but it was not tape recorded and we only have her

10  word as to what she said.  We only have her word on oath for what
she says, what is the second point? About the things you listed
out, manic defence just indicates a state of heightened mental and
physical activity it has nothing whatsoever to do with forgetting.
What I am suggesting to you is that there would be other ways a

15  child could deal with this rearousal other than the way you
described, in other words other than by a show of anxiety?  Theres
a whole range of behaviours, children can become withdrawn and
depressed, I thought you were linking those to other means of
forgetting, I misunderstood you. So there would be other means by

20  which these children could deal with the re arousal of their
original experience other than by exhibiting the sort of anxiety
you have talked about? You see the major handicap is that no child
made a spontaneous or gave a spon. account. Every acct has been in
response to cuing, in other words the adult took the lead and the

25  adult contd to take the lead in eliciting further informn and
unless we have quite accurately documented as to what these leading
questions were it is very diff. to express firm opinions about what
the children's responses were because after a while and with some
children they can come to believe what the parent has said to them.

30  That doesn't arise out of the cross exam, at all, isn't there also
the poss. of conditiong by repeated abuse of a child so that when
reliving it if you like there may be a flat appearance simply
because of the no. of times it has happened? I don't think I wld
subscribe to that. If there had been repeated abuse associated with

35  threat I would expect a much greater reservoir of distress in the
long term memory and unconscious that would surface.  The
flattening may be due to being depressed because when people are
depressed they are not animated like normal people.  So depression






                        Page 606

might explain the low mood if you like of a child? Yes.  With
regard to suggestibility, all humans are suggestible aren't they
one way or anor? Yes.  Children generally are more suggestible than
adults? Yes. That is as high as it can be put? No it can be put

5   higher than that in that in particular sitns children can agree
with things in order to comply with pressures around them.  And
under severe stress it lowers their resistance to what is presented
to them. There are a no. of articles including one by Saywich and
others would you agree which showed children had a considerable

10  resistance to suggestibility partic. with regard to guestions which
might have suggested sexual abuse? Yes I have read articles, that
pertains mainly to 5 plus year old children who have been abused,
they are less amenable to suggns to the contrary, they tend to
stick to the central facts. Aren't we dealing here with children

15  who have disclosed when they are aged between 5 and 9? They are
talking about experiences that occurred before they were 5, what I
mentioned was children 5 plus tend to hold onto their experiences
and are less influenced by suggestions to the contrary, we are
talking in the creche about children who have experiences before

20  they turn 5 and recounting them somewhere between 4 years and 1
year after they left the creche.  I think you acknowledge yourself
and have done an article prepared in conjunction with 2 barristers
that leading questions in themselves aren't the end of the issue,
you accept that in order to elicit details and informn its

25  appropriate to ask direct questions of a child? Yes at times.  I
want to ask you about your definition of consistent or
inconsistent, I want to read to you s.23G(2)(c) so we are under no
misapprehension as to what we are dealing with, "The question ...
as the complainants" isn't the definition of inconsistent you have

30  been using during the course of yr evidence in chief that the
behaviour shown is not definitive or diagnostic of sexual abuse?
Yes.  Isn't that quite misleading? No.  In the context of this
case? No.  In other words your definition is that without any other
evidence if you attempt to rely on the behavioural indicators or

35  one behavioural indicator that is not proof of sexual abuse? Its
what I said if I can recap on what Mr Harrison read out, each one
in turn were these items of behaviour Dr Zelas mentioned in her
evidence as being consistent with sexual abuse.  Now there is no






                        Page 607

psycological symptom or behavioural proper in itself or even in
constellation which is diagnostic of sexual abuse, it is not
accepted by DSM or ICD and it fails the Frye test.  We are not
talking about diagnosis of sexual abuse in the issue of whether or

5   not something is consistent or inconsistent with behaviour of
sexually abused children of this age surely? I thought that is what
the question was, consistent with.  You sat through the evidence of
Dr Zelas when she gave her definition as to what consistent or
inconsistent meant and she was cross-exam, on the basis of that was

10  she not? I wasn't here for her cross-exam.   What Dr Zelas said at
page 421 line 10 is that her definition of consistency or
inconsistency is that the behaviour is one that occurs in a signif.
propn of sexually abused children and therefore it is not in
conflict with the poss. that abuse has occurred, in other words

15  that it does not conflict in any way with the allegn of sexual
abuse and perhaps increases it or is consistent with it? YOu see
that is more than a statement and it does not take into considern
the wide range of sexual abuse which as I said earlier can range
from lookg at a pornographic photo to sexual sadism. There is no

20  constelln of symptoms that can embrace the whole field of sexual
abuse.  I would agree that with children as I said earlier to
experience threat stress in assn with their sexual experience will
certainly manifest these symptoms but it is not a blanket cover for
every aspect of sexual abuse. It is not being suggested as such?

25  That is how you presented it, you did not discriminate between
items of sexual abuse. Were you not here for the cross exam, and re
exam, of Dr Zelas? No. Did you not hear Dr Zelas say in re exam.
at no stage was she attempting to diagnose any of these children as
having been sexually abused on the basis of behavioural indicators

30  only? I wasn't here in Court.  that was her evidence, could I ask
you then please to apply if you can the definition she has used,
that is whether the behavioural indicator occurs in a signif. ppn
of sexually abused children and therefore is not in conflict in
any way with the allegns of sexual abuse, in other words in the

35  children who you have seen have there been behavioural indicators
such as those being put to you?  I have seen some behavioural
disturbances but you see what is missing is that there is no family
history apart from what was obtained in the Court to indicate other






                        Page 608

possible reasons. For every manifestn of disturbance that we saw.
This is a matter that you reg. introduce into this issue isn't it
when you give evidence? Well you see the whole inquiry. Is it? It
is because there has been a single focus of concern and no concern

5   with the poss. origins elsewhere of these symptons.  So if there is
only one focus of concern I can understand she would apply every
symptom the child has had or the mother has stated they have h ad
is consistent with sexual abuse.  Again that was not Dr Zelas'
evidence, she was prepared to acknowledge in cross exam, that many

10  of the behaviours she ref. to were also consistent with other
causes, you have to acknowledge I put to you that the behavioural
indicators put to you by my learned friend could be consistent with
behaviour of sexually abused children, they could also be
consistent with other explanations but are consistent with

15  behaviours which other children who have been sexually abused have
exhibited? Yes I have in a sense said that previously when I said
if they have had a ssexual experience asociated with threat stress
they will exhibit symptoms right across the board. At no stage in
this case has it been suggested these children are being diagnosed

20  only on the basis of their behavioural symptoms? And what they
presented in the interviews yes.  But in the interviews nothing
else was explored. I suggest to you that your evidence as to what
was consistent or inconsistent with sexually abused children was
quite misleading? No I was presented item by item and item by item

25  these behavioural symptoms are not consistent with sexual abuse,
they can occur as a result of any threat stress.  Would you please
then apply Dr Zelas7 test? I prefer to apply my own one of threat
stress, threat stress can cause symptoms and sexual abuse is one
stressor. Applying your definition you have to accept then that any

30  of the behavioural indicators referred to by Dr Zelas could be
consistent with other behaviours of sexually abused children? I
said before if the sexual abuse was associ. with threat stress that
the child perceived as threatening.  Isn't that the case in each of
these?  I don't know.   Hasn't each child given evidence about an

35  allegation which would denote threat stress? To be precise there
were 9 items of just alleged abuse that involved talking, one
wouldn't expect that to cause stress.  Two involved just showing,
38 items involved some action.  Now its not necssy that all of






                        Page 609

those would have caused threat stress..  The physical acts the
Crown has relied on touching either with the hand, penis or an
object, part of the genitalia, or urinating on any of these
children would promote threat stress would it not? Well it may do.

5   The only way to be certain is to get inside the child's mind at the
moment when these things were happening because there was no
evident stress from any child in relation to any of these things
until they were questioned.  There is no way we can get into the
mind of these children at the time, we have to rely on our judicial

10  system, what you want to do is to introduce a proviso into our
legislation under s.23G which is to the effect that that evidence
can be given provided there is a thorough profile done of the
child's family history isn't that what you want to do? Well that
is the most desirable thing to do in fairness to the children and

15  their families.  You know don't you our legislation says no such
things? Yes I am aware of what it says.
HARRISON RXD
My friend has ref. you to the actual percentage of your practice
dealing with sexually abused children, how much of your practice

20  over all your experience over all your years deals with disturbed
children? I had 10 years full time from 1958 to 1967, I had a year
that I was in Aberdeen in Scotland, a third of my work was with
children, I told you earlier about the 2 and 1/2 years being
involved with children in England during the training programme and

25  I have had families and children since I returned to Australia in
1968.  In varying proportions week by week.  So would it be fair to
say that a large percentage of your practice has been dealing with
just disturbed children? No for that 10 year period concentrated
period all in one go, its not just dealing with disturbed children

30  its dealing with the children and their families because it is a
family clinic and you don't treat children in isolation you treat
them along with their parents and other children in the family.
Therefore the type of disturbed behaviour you get from children who
have been sexually abused would be the type of behaviour you get

35  from children you have been treating perse? Yes. Does it vary? Its
varies on the nature of the abuse, I am currently treating 2 adults
who have been victims of satanical ritual abuse 40 years ago.  Ref.
to the report or journal my friend ref. you to where it was talking






                        Page 610

about can a child of 3 years be a witness, can you tell us what the
thrust of that report was?  I have forgotten the details but I
believe from recollecn the child's evidence helped convict a
murderer.  Because of what the child remembered witnessing.  What

5   time frame are we ref. to when talking about that child
remembering? I think it was very soon afterwards, I am not sure
when.  I can't remember the time frame but I think it was within a
short time after the event.  They weren't ref. to when the child
was 1 year old for example? No the child was 3 when this event

10  occurred.  Was the child still 3 years old when it gave evidence?
I can't be absolutely certain of the age.  My friend has ref. you
to instances of where children have shown fear at the initial
disclosure by the parents, can there be other causes around that
that can cause the child to show fear?  I would imagine that one of

15  them would be what the mother or parent presents to the child as to
whether it is presented in a non threatening way or presented in a
frightening way.  YOu have been referred to a sitn where a child
may not show any behavioural indicators throughout an interview in
terms of threat stress, how common to your knowledge would that

20  be? That is very difficult to estimate. For example the
pathological mechanism repression or dissocn is so strong that
you didn't get anything released about abuse then you certainly
wouldn't get any evidence of distress but it would be very
difficult to say what percentage of times you would see a person

25  who has been abused not manifesting evidence of distress, what I
have been ref. to is when they do release the informn about the
abuse then one commonly usually sees some associated distress.


30  ADJOURNED:  3.30






                        Page 611

RESUMED:    3.45
My friend has raised the issue with you of what Dr Zelas said when
she said these behaviours were consistent with the behaviour of
sexually abused children can you recall her evidence where she on

5   many occasions said such matters as ref. to behaviour of children
as consistent with children that have been sexually abused? Yes.
And another statement she made p.365 "in my opinion these
sexualised behaviours are consistent with child sexual abuse", you
recall her saying that? Not really, its too long ago.  She refers

10  on page 368 speaking diffs. the mother mentioned following
disclosure "this is consistent with sexual abuse", can you ever
recall her saying round that time this is consistent with the
behaviour of sexually abused childreN? Yes I do remember that in
general.  Ref. to the behaviour of Tess Hickory that type of

15  behaviour is inappropriate behaviour for a child of this age and is
consistent with child sexual abuse? That can be consistent with
anything that is making her anxious.  My friend ref. you to where a
child has already disclosed abuse prior to an interview, where a
child has disclosed abuse prior to an interview would you or would

20  you not expect to see indicators during an interview? Yes my
experience with children and adults who have been abused and
expressed distress when they recount those experiences subsequently
there is elements of distresss appropriate to their experiences
manifest at follow up interviews. Its not until they really come to

25  terms with what has happened to them that their emotions will
stabilise.